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Welcome to the best place on the net to talk 49ers football! The 49ers Paradise Forum offers a unique experience to users - allowing conversations about football, and the 49ers without the name calling and insults that have populated most of the forums out there. I'd like to invite everyone to add their thoughts to the forum. All you need is a valid e-mail address.

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What A Game
The 49ers played a crazy game this past Sunday and it may take all week before us fans can really let the adrenaline slip. But in the mean time it makes for great conversation. This week we’ll be talking about the greatest comeback in 49ers playoffs history, and of course we’ll be looking forward to the big showdown against the Bucs. Come on by the 49ers Paradise Forum and have your say!

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Subject: The Playoffs


Author:
Anthony49
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:56:19 12/31/02 Tue
Howdy Folks!

First things first:

WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great to hear from you mate, but sorry to hear of the troubles. I will be up your way shortly -- I am hoping we can get together for our nearly-annual playoff watching. I'll give you a ring soon.

Happy New Year's Eve! I hope everybody here is planning on getting as inebriated tonight as I am. :-)

Something that may elude folks who solely watch the 9'ers instead of 9'er fans in diaspora on the east coast such as myself is this:

The NFL is simply not very good this year.

People talk about how "competitive" things have been ...

People talk about how "exciting" a playoff race it has been ... with more people in contention late into the season than at any point in history ...

And that's all true and good, I suppose --

But the other side of the hat is that most teams in the NFL are simply mediocre-to-average. In fact, some of the best teams in the NFL (in the competive AFC East) won't even be IN the playoffs because they spent the entire season beating themselves up.

It is for this reason that I expect my favorite B-list team, the J-E-T-S, Jets, Jets, Jets! to do quite well in the playoffs. They may even be a surprise AFC super bowl rep. It's them or the Raiders or Titans, imho. The other 3 will be eliminated soon, and with extreme prejudice.

But getting back to the 9'ers for a moment, it's pretty clear to me that as mediocre as the 9'ers have looked this year, and they have, particularly in blowing late leads against the Chargers and Saints (and now the Lambs), they have as good a chance as ANYBODY in the NFC.

The Eagles? The team to beat. But McNabb is going to play. And McNabb will be rusty. A team could exploit that and sneak away with a win. But they're the clear favorite. Best overall team.

The Packers? Looked *wretched* in a *must-win* game against the Jets, which would have given them *home-field* throughout. And they looked terrible. They are beaten up, really beaten up, inconsistent, and now they're going to go on the road for a while. They'll take care of the Falcons, but after that, it's anybody's guess.

The Bucs? Brad Johnson's injury appears serious. He's likely not going to play at all this year. Rob johnson? (excuse me while I giggle for a bit).

...

rob Johnson? The guy is good for 5 sacks a game, guaranteed. And a couple of turnovers for good measure. The Bucs are going nowhere with Rob johnson, even if they are at home. The Bucs are NOT going to be in the SB, I gare-ron-tee it.

The Falcons? Vick is an awesome wildcard, but his team is average to below average at best. The Pack will take care of the Falcons in week 1. If they don't, the shock of the playoffs, the falcons will be quickly dispatched the following weekend.

Now, let's get to the 9'ers and giants.

the Giants have ALREADY PLAYED A PLAYOFF GAME, essentially. they are physically and emotionally spent. Tiki Barber was in tears, and after the diminuitive back carried the ball 35 times, he is BEAT UP -- There is *NO WAY TIKI BARBER HAS THE KIND OF DAY THAT HE HAD LAST WEEK AGAINST THE 9'ERS -- I gare-ron-tee it. though, i wouldn't mind some more of those fumbles.

Tiki is taken care of. Now, with Plummer on Toomer, I'm happy. Toomer will get 8 catches, but no big plays. Shockey? He's good, and has amazing power and speed, but i like JP on Shockey. Shockey will get 6-8 catches, but no real big plays.

Collins?

This is the thing. COLLINS MUST GET HIT -- AND HIT OFTEN -- I don't really care about sacks, so much. But I want Carter to lay about 8 tasty licks on Collins in this game. Add a couple smashes into Collins from the DT's, and Kerry will lose this game for the G-men. He'll fumble the ball, and he'll throw a hurried pick into the waiting arms of Parrish (and hopefully Bronson, the team's defensive MVP).

If the 9'ers don't beat the Giants this weekend, I'll eat my hat.

Without any condiments!!!!!!

After that?

*THERE IS NO TEAM IN THE NFC THAT IS UNBEATABLE*. The 9'ers could put it together, and could be in the SB. Very easily.

They could just as easily NOT be in the SB. The NFC is that weak and unpredictable.

And I frankly feel that the SB belongs to the AFC. The SB champion will likely be the Raiders, Titans, or surprise Jets.

But even these three aren't untouchable. (hell, we've already beat the Raiders).

THIS IS THE MOST WATERED DOWN COMPETITIVE I HAVE EVER SEEN! AS BAD AS THE 9'ERS HAVE LOOKED IN STRETCHES, THEY ARE JUST AS GOOD AS ANY OF THE OTHER NFC REPRESENTATIVES! THEY COULD TAKE THIS BAD BOY!

go niners!
Subject: TANK


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:47:04 12/31/02 Tue
TANK: Which would you rather have,Mooch as head coach with Knapp as OC or Knapp as head coach with an OC hand picked by Bill Walsh who might also have the title of co-head coach?I don't like either of those choices but if Tampa had gotten Mooch last year and Knapp was the new head coach(I personally don't believe those reports of him being the choice)then Knapp could have been OK as long as he was just an organizer of things in general and he let the coordinators do their things. I hope you are correct about DeHaven being cut loose.Of course if Mooch leaves the bright side of him leaving for those of you who think he is a good coach is that his less than sterling staff will probably ALL leave with him if the new guy has any clout at all.If Mooch stays then(make a note) I totally agree with you about Morningwig. But better yet would be someone,anyone that is chosen by Walsh as someone who he thinks could run his style of offense.TIM
Subject: Win and Anthony


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:26:54 12/31/02 Tue
Win: The Great Bill Walsh said Rick Mirer reminded him of Joe Montana. He said Jake Plummer was "the next Montana." He believed in Steve Stenstrom and signed him shortly after he arrived in 1999. In his wisdom, Walsh passed on Chad Pennington and drafted Gio Carmazzi instead. So, sure, Garcia may have momentarily exceeded Walsh's expectations 25-30 games ago, but I haven't heard the Silver Fox praising Garcia's play this season. Have you?

My prediction: the 49ers will draft another QB in one of the first three rounds this year. Cade McNown is the wild card. If he projects to be a starter, then forget I said this. But, if he is merely a backup, then somehow, somewhere, the 49ers will be looking for a QBOTF.

When greg noted that, "counting the $1.95 million in incentives from last season that will count this year, Garcia will earn $13.5 million," it was obvious that the front office appreciates Garcia's hard work. But, I suspect that is far too much for this kind of production (85 QB rating with no playoff victories), and Walsh/Donahue recall their earlier assessment.

Koy Detmer played exceptionally well for a while. So did AJ Feeley, Marc Burlger and Kelly Holcomb. I would guess they all exceeded Bill Walsh's expectations for several consecutive games this year. Walsh could have signed any of them the past two summers, but didn't.

Anthony49: The odds may look good for the 49ers from over there on the "right coast," but over here on the "left coast" things look bleak. We see a lot of the Raiders (yuck!), and they are much more talented and physical. The disperity is shocking. Their huge line, their intimidating defense, their numerous big play, offensive weapons, AND dominant special teams...it makes the 49ers look lucky to be invited to the dance.

My analysis of the other NFC playoff teams:

Atlanta - nice defense...could probably frustrate the 49ers for a quarter or two, but Michael Vick is the whole show. I think a healthy Bronson and Winborn beats the Falcons.

New York - the Giants are hot, but beatable. I expect the 49ers to win if Winborn, Webster and Stone can play, but it will take a full roster. Collins can be shaken and Barber contained. Hearst will be stymied, but Barlow and Owens' big play shuld carry the day. Even a mobile Garcia can frustrate the Giants D.

Green Bay - they are here only because of Brett Favre...there defense is suspect. They beat Atlanta at Lambeau, but could easily lose on the road (particualrly in Philadelphia).

Philadelphia - it's not so much McNabb that bothers me, it is there defense that totally bamboozled Garcia with blitzes and stunts. Anyone who doesn't think Deese has given up a sack this year needs to review that game tape. This defense is scarier than the Bucaneers, in my mind. The Eagle DB's totally shut down our passing game.

Tampa Bay - Rob Johnson is beatable, but this defense could easily stymie Hearst and Garcia. I would rather play Gruden's Bucs than the Eagles. But fate seems to be bringing ruden and the Raiders together for a rematch.

Yes, the 49ers playing their best game of the season, for all FOUR quarters, can beat all these teams. But, the frustration is getting FOUR quality quarters out of this team.

Can someone please explain why Scott Gragg was compelled to help the right guard twice with an end coming outside? He was beaten twice despite having an obvious responsibility to protect the corner. Sure, Jackson held him once, but why even give the inside help? Can't that guard (Heitmann?) get help from Beasley, or better yet...do the job himself? Anything has to be better than giving a straight shot to Rattay.

Garrison Hearst is an incredible, even inspiring comeback story. I love our organization's loyalty to him. But, does anyone really believe that with a choice between Hearst and Charlie Garner, that our front office chose the wrong man? Garner leads all backs in yards per touch. He averages a full yard more than any other back ... 7.2 yards per. Imagine how explosive he would be with Barlow and Beasley. Garner is a threat to go all the way every time he touches the ball.

I know the salary cap forced the 49ers to let go of Garner and Rice, but imagine if it hadn't, or if we had made different decisions (like not signing Stokes to that huge deal in 1999). Imagine if the salary cap cards had been played better with Greg Clark and Junior Bryant. Everyone always argues for Donahue to grant extensions, but these deals can come back and cripple you in the salary cap era. Before Webster is given an extension, it must be made comensurate with that of a backup...not a starter. Junior Bryant didn't deserve "starter money"...Engelberger and Okeafor don't deserve "starter money."

As Garcia's contract shows, these extensions aren't always cheap, or economical.
Subject: Playoffs


Author:
Bob
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 19:23:59 12/31/02 Tue
The Rams game was a swift kick to the nuts.I don'tr think it will damage the psyche of the 9ers that bad.

Is it possible for us to put the game away?

The Giants game im scared of.

Me,along with a few other memebers of this forum live in and around NYC and are surrounded on all fronts by Giants fans.I will $hit a brick if we lose.I'll have to move, change my name, and buy a gun for protection.I am the only 9ers fan in my entire family of 50+.We must win

I think Ahmed Plummer on Toomer should be a battle of the Titans.I hate to be the pessimist here but I think Toomer is going to be the x factor in this game that is going to go in the giants favor

Shockey is one hell of player. It s happens the same can be said for Julian Peterson's coverage ability. he is good and gets the Giants motivated with his plays.He is more important as a rally flag than a player, and he's one good player.I might go so far as to say Julian Peterson and Tony Parrish play him.

We can and will manhandle Barber.Done deal.This will even be easier if Winborn comes back with his "A Game." The 4 fumbles r mentally damaging.He is good but I think we can do the job well.Can our D-Line give enough push though.As I remember Dana Stubbelfield was bullied around week one, which created lanes.

If we can apply pressure on Collins the game is ours.Roughing him up will help alot.We need a big game out of Okeafr,BY, and Carter.BY needs to show the critics he is worthy of his probowl selection.Carter needs to show his dominance.Okeafr needs to show he's not an inconsistent player.We have the assurance of Collins not scrambling around and creating a mess of things.

TO,TO,TO.I am seeing an absolutly huge game out of him.Will Allen is good but the 9ers found out how to exploit the 2 deep coverage.Tai Streets will have a very solid game.EJ is our X-Factor.He needs to be a receiver and releive some safety pressure off of TO.

I hope we can establish a running game.They are tough as nails.But I think we might be able to serve up our own platter of thunder and lightining.I think we should give Ron Stone a chance to get back at his old teammates by running it right up the guts behind our probowl linemen.I'm not to aware of the Giants LBs but I think Beasley will be more than willing to give them a good lickin'

Strahan might make Garcia's day a living nightmare.I hope Gragg can do the same job he did agaisnt him in week 1.

I hope we can capitalize.I think we can win by a big score.I think we can lose by a bug score.I along with many posters cannot afford to lose this game
Subject: Sneaking in


Author:
Uncle Kevin
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:21:42 12/31/02 Tue
TANK

Re: Gragg and helping out the Guard.

That wasn't Heitmann. In the first half Kosier was playing Right Guard. In the second half Willig shifted over to the Right Guard spot so that Kosier could try his hand at Left Tackle.

Why help out? Because Kosier is a rookie seventh round draft choice who has spent most of the year trying to learn how to play Tackle in the NFL, and had little experience playing Guard.

And later because Willig, a better Tackle than Guard was filling in.

That Gragg was helping out made sense.

That he allowed himself to be held like that on both plays was unforgivable.

The guy does not have the footspeed or the agility to handle speed rushers. And that's what Little is.
Subject: Bob, My Condolences...


Author:
greg
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:51:53 12/31/02 Tue
Bob: My condolences regarding your family. Mine isn't so big, but I have one brother-in-law who is an Oakland Raiders fan, and that alone is enough to screw up every family gathering. I hope you are in a position to brag your family's next wedding reception.

I think TANK said it first, and Bob kinda seconded the motion - Ahmed Plummer isn't the shut down corner we had hoped for, and even a lesser receiver like Armani Toomer is good enough to beat Plummer 5-6 crucial times next week. I think Tampa Bay, Philadelphia, Oakland and Miami have shown you can't have too many cornerbacks, so don't let the selection of Mike Rumph deter the notion of drafting another CB early. While everyone is singing the praises of Andre Woolfolk and Marcus Trufant, I think Donahue should surprise us with Kansas States' little Terence Newman (he's another Sam Madison).

Check out the 49ers squads and you can see which need to be addressed in the offseason:

Quarterback: Garcia, Rattay, Doman AND McNown - a crowded house. I agree with TANK, no more backups invited to camp, only the next QBOTF.

Runningback: Hearst, Barlow, Jackson, Beasley, Smith and Robertson - more than enough talent.

Receiver: Owens, Stokes, Streets, Wilson, etc. - only Owens and Streets need return. This unit needs an infusion of new blood...two or three new studs this next Spring.

Tight End: Johnson, Swift, Jennings and Anelli. Only Johnson and Jennings are safe.

O-Line: Newberry, Stone, Gragg, Fiore, Willig, Deese, Heitmann, Kosier and Lynch. Call me crazy, but I think Fiore and Deese are fighting for one roster spot...the "backup utility guy." Willig and Lynch are gone. Expect two, possibly three new faces next year.

D-Line: Carter, Bryant, Stubblefield, Engelberger, Okeafor, Moran, Flanigan, Shaw and Davis. The biggest decision is Stubblefield. I won't lose sleep if either Engelberger or Okeafor aren't resigned. Bye bye Moran. This group needs an infusion of three or four new faces.

Linebackers: Winborn, Peterson, Smith, Ulbrich, Rasheed, Moore, Stewart, etc. This group is set (unless you are considering a stud MLB/ILB).

Safeties: Parrish, Bronson, Heard, Curtis, Keith and Moore. Considering the versatility of Rumph and Parker to play FS, only four of this deep group will be back.

Cornerbacks: Rumph, Plummer, Webster, Holman, Parker and Williams. Plummer, Rumph and Williams are the only safe ones in my book. If my calculations are right, Webster is a RFA (unless he negotiated an extension). I am sure he will be tendered an top one year offer. Still expect one or two new faces next year.

Basically, Donahue should be looking for NINE new players: 2 new WR, 2 CB, 2 DL, 2 OL and a better TE. The team could really be improved with a new starting WR, CB, D-Lineman and O-Lineman. That is basically, two free agents and the first two draft picks. If we could afford to sign Stone, Parrish, Flanigan and Moran (along with resigning Hearst, Newberry and Beasley) last year, I would concentrate on only two impact free agents this offseason, kinda like Parrish was. It would be nice to add an impact punch on offense.
Subject: Niners


Author:
9r4life
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:53:17 12/31/02 Tue
The Giants this weekend!!

I want Peterson to punch that punk ass Shokey square in the mouth. Peterson stoped the best T.E. in football. (Tony Gonzalez). He will do an excellent job against Shockey!! Peterson is a stud, and besides Owens, might be the best athlete on our team.


Tank - I completely agree with your analysis, that the change of the game was running on 1st down after that HUGE pick. I just wish that our defense could make those scores. I do not trust our coaches to make the proper call. You have to dagger that. The run took all the wind out of our sails.

It seems that no matter who is at the Q.B position, we will falter in the second half!! I do not think anymore that Mariucci is a bad coach. I have decided that he does not have the "killer instict" at the perfect moment? Does that make sence? Sports have moments. You need the right play when your team is in that moment.

There are moments, downs amd certain feelings in a game when you NEED to call the perfect play for the situation. I do not see our coaches catching those exact moments. They need to coach in the emotions of the moment. I see them missing the emotional part of plays. And sometimes our games.

Example: Last night, Parrish HUGE pick, great run back, the team full of EMOTION and, we run on the next play. The correct play would be something in the endzone. Even if we do not score, we played in the moment. If you do score, the other team is done. Deflated. Instead they held us to a field goal and they, have won the moment. And they keeped it the rest of the game!!

9r4life
Subject: Catching Up!


Author:
49ertothecore
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 14:44:02 01/01/03 Wed
Anthony49 - I agree the way the NFL is today and on any given Sunday anything can happen, that the 49ers have a good as chance as any, if we get Owens, Bronson, Winborn, Rahsheed, Webster and others back and healthy and play 4 quarters as a team, which by the way hasn't happened all year. No better time than starting this Sunday against the GIANTS! T.O. can be the most dominant WR in the NFL, will we find a way to get him involved and delivering some knockout blows.

TANK - as usual, your comments and observations are right on target. Lets hope somehow the coaches can put together the right "game plan" and we get some key players back healthy and able to contribute and the 49ers are able to "surprise" some opponents this year. We definitely need some talent upgrades in several different areas (CB, WR, OL, DL & TE). I hope we don't try to fill the CB need through the draft but opt to spend some decent $ in FA, like we have seen it takes a good 2 seasons for the CB's to really find their niche. Josh Shaw showed some real promise at DT, if he can stay healthy? Okeafor & Engelberger at LDE are 2-3 string. Rumph? Who knows? If we can get another impact WR and TE and upgrade the line a bit the offense could be more potent. I don't think Garcia is the answer, I hope he proves us wrong? I think if we could unload Garcia for some draft picks and sway Plummer & Boston to come over to the "light" it would do wonders for their careers and the future of the 49ers!?

9r4life - I agree with your observation on Mora & Mooch not at least, consistently (if at all, ever?!) being able to make the call that can put away opponents at "defining moments" in a game. Take the Ram game when St. Louis had 4th and inches, they didn't kick a field goal, or go for a first down but stick a dagger in our hearts by throwing for a totally unexpected TD!

Happy New Year everyone! We're still alive and in the playoffs, lets hope our NINERS can do some surprising, although I have to admit I don't have the warm & fuzzies!
Subject: Coaching Carousel


Author:
Teller
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 15:04:46 01/01/03 Wed
It says in my newspaper this morning that Mike Holmgren has stepped down as GM in Seattle, to keep his head coaching job. I admire his comments: "I think the biggest title you can have is Super Bowl champion. It wasn't a particularly difficult thing for me. My No. 1 goal is winning." Holmgren also fired his entire defensive coaching staff. He said these coaches were his friends, and firing them wasn't fun.

The sceptics will say that Holmgren did what he had to do to save his head coaching position, but I think his decisions took great courage and a healthy dose of humility. Professional sports is filled with big egos...with men who think they are too big to give up authority or admit to being wrong. Holmgren was able to step back and look at what was best for the team...that success might best be attained through a means he hadn't originally envisioned.

Here in San Francisco, the rumor is that some egos are bent out of shape in the front office because their coach isn't their hand picked guy. After a 12-4 season in 2001, many argue that Walsh and Donahue, while surprised at the success, wanted to push Mariucci out so that they could name a head coach. That is the kind of ego that can set back an organization for a decade (witness Jerry Jones dumping Jimmy Johnson).

I don't know why this 2002 49ers team frustrates me so, with all the same coaches, same starting players, they don't seem to play a fourth quarter (offensively or defensively) that they can be proud of. The easy answer is blame the coach, who has done a remarkable job the previous five years. It is more difficult to blame the players, who we grow attached to and secretly wish we could be ($$$, fame and playing our favorite game for a living; rather than driving a truck, auditing expense reports, feeding livestock, studying for exams, filling out forms, meeting a sales quota, etc.).

All summer I read the optimistic reports that this team was new and improved. I believed it when they said Sean Moran could upgrade the LDE position. I believed it when they said that JJ Stokes was hungry and improved. I believed it when they said Mike Rumph would solidify the nickel back and Jeff Chandler was worth a fourth round pick. I expected all that work that Stubblefield did would improve the defense from 10th or 11th to 5th or 6th in the league.

But, when it comes right down to it...this team has the same imperfections in 2002 that it had when it ended 2001. The SAME problems! 1. Pourous nickel pass defense, 2. Lack of consistant pass rush, 3. No big play threat opposite Owens, and, 4. An offensive line that makes Garcia feel insecure. I know everyone loves the o-line and Garrison Hearst, but the 49ers rushing game which used lead the league is now ranked 11th or 12th in 2002.

I know TANK has been critical of the front office, but I think he was being more sarcastic, trying to make a point that aggressiveness needs to start at the top, from ownership and the front office. If I mischaracterized your thoughts TANK, I apologize. All I am trying to say is, the organization needs to think this season through, look at all the symptoms and causes for a frustrating season. They have to set egos and friendships aside, like Mike Holmgren. Admit their errors in personnel evaluation...admit their errors in play calling...admit their lack of preparation on special teams...admit some players don't have what it takes.

Oh yeah, Mornhinweg and Millen are doing that as we speak, and the Detroit ownership isn't ready to make a change this winter...they will wait for Mariucci another day.

I hope Jacksonville hires Dennis Green, but I expect they go with Nick Saban. Dallas with Parcells will be interesting to watch. Cincinnati won't give up the #1 pick for Mariucci, so this idea of getting an early draft pick for our coach is going nowhere fast. Donahue will be forced to extend his contract or release Mooch. Knapp looks like a goner. Any idea who we can replace him with? Tyrone Willingham has already been contacted by "the NFL front office on behalf of several NFL teams," and he gave an emphatic "NO THANK YOU!"

Happy New Year! Beat the Giants!
Subject: The New Year


Author:
Uncle Kevin
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:14:55 01/01/03 Wed
TANK

I'm with you in thinking that the Niners will be looking for a new QB.

A draft choice? A Free Agent? A surgically repaired college star / pro flop? Your guess is as good as mine.

The point is...there are some great choices out there.

Maybe McNown can come back. It's encouraging to hear that Walsh is making him his pet project.

Right now, Jake Plummer figures to be available. I think we'll take a run at him if he is. But I've also heard that Shanahan is very interested in him so there might be a bidding war. And I don't expect the Niners to win any more bidding wars.

Then of course there are guys like Gesser and Boller coming out. Gesser's a winner and a good fit, and Boller is my favorite. And neither will go in the early rounds. Either could find their way onto the team.

Re: our problem offensive line. Here's where I think we have to spend a high draft pick or two.

I really like our interior line...and I think Heitmann, and maybe Kosier could develop into very very good Guards. (Neither are there yet, but both show talent, and have a leg up after getting playing time this season.)

But I'm not a fan of our Tackles at all. I'm not going to suggest any names here yet...but we really need to upgrade both of our tackle positions.

Re: our other trouble spot...Left Defensive End. I have to admit...I thought Engleberger would develop into a better player...but it hasn't happened yet. And I don't think Okeafor gets it done.

I am very interested in the possibility of picking up a guy like Marcus Jones (Tampa released him earlier this year and though some teams made offers, he decided to take the rest of the year off to get completely healthy.) Or maybe even Courtney Brown if the Browns do decide to cut him loose. Both are still pretty young, and both have that combination of size and speed that we lack.

Granted, both have flaws. Neither has been as dominating as they were expected to be. But both have real talent, and I think either would make a huge difference on our line. (And I'd like to see us get a guy we could simply plug in, as opposed to getting another rookie. Young and Stubblefield don't have that much time left.)

I don't think we're there yet.

I don't think we have the personell to be a championship team.

But then again, I don't think we're far off either.
Subject: Fourth quarter blues in St. Louis


Author:
Sydney From Syd's Corner.
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:01:04 01/01/03 Wed
The San Francisco 49ers went into the last Monday Night Game of the season with a notion of winning and sweeping the hated St. Louis Rams of both today and yesterday. What they came out with was totally different then anticipated though as the 49ers due to poor execution and blatant mistakes opened the door for the Rams to capitalize in an explosion frenzy in the fourth quarter.
Some can compare this explosion to one like Hiroshima that ended the second World War for the United States, it was that dramatic as the Rams of old in the likeliness of old Kurt Warner drove down the field at will scoring and making San Francisco miscues incredible opportunities. Even though this loss means nothing post-season wise it still radiates a negative vapor that eludes the players as they leave the plane and prepare for the wild card weekend against the New York Giants. Steve Mariucci better make sure that his doctrine of having very short memory of this game lives on in every one of his players, for it was a convincing lead squandered in the end by our own accord.
Please see more in Syd's Corner! Thanks for your support!
Syd
Subject: Can Someone Answer this Question?


Author:
Prophet
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 19:21:46 01/01/03 Wed
Is Winborn ready to play or what? One minute I hear he is practicing, next I read he is doubtful for the game. We really need his help on defense if we are to go far.

I have to believe the 9ers are not done retooling that team? Becaause they are to many ? marks at different positions. The thing is a lot of the players who are starting are second stringers, who are overachieving, kind a like putting on a blind fold and walking from one side of the room to the other without bumping into anything. They somehow manage not to make to many mistakes, but as we have seen, it is catching up to them.

I look foward to the offseason, but perhaps they can go farther then expected in the playoffs.

Anyway HAPPY NEW YEARS! And may 2003 turns out to be a better year for everyone, including the 9ers.
Subject: Jeez.


Author:
TrevortheGreat of Trevor's Corner
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 21:26:07 01/01/03 Wed
TANK-

I dont get the sentiment of wanting to pick up other teams' castoffs. You'd replace Jeff Garcia with Jake Plummer? That sounds like a downgrade to me, to say the least. Not mentioned is how very difficult it would be for the 49ers to get rid of Garcia. He's the second-highest paid player in the league in terms of real dollars, top five in cap number. There's no way to get rid of him without setting the team back a couple years moneywise. Plus there's no need to drop him.

And Chike Okeafor has been among team leaders in QB pressures, and tenacious against the run. Really, when has LDE ever been cited as a spot of weakness. I think this board is creating a problem where there isn't one.

Now, because Okeafor hasn't been a world-beater to this point, if some team is willing to throw megabucks at him I think the 49ers should let him go. Engelberger has starting experience and a suitable backup should be readily available in the free agent pool. Plus his departure would allow Julian Peterson more pass-rushing opportunities, because Okeafor took his spot in the nickel pass rush.

And again with complaints against the tackles? Derrick Deese is cited by several major writers as a Pro Bowl snub and Gragg shuts down pass rushers all season long and STILL people are calling for new tackles? I agree that an infulxion of youth and high draft choices is needed, but neither man needs to be replaced yet. Again, creating a problem area where none exists.

And incidentally, I don't think Kyle Kosier will become anything more than a backup swingman on the line. Career backup, emergency starter. I do, however, like Eric Heitmann's longterm potential.

Bottom line people, this team does have some needs, but the ones being cited here are just spoken out of reflex action, I believe. LDE and OT are always cited as problem areas around this site. Hopefully someday you'll learn.
Subject: ah---


Author:
Uncle Kevin
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 23:26:42 01/01/03 Wed
Ah---Pardon there Trev, but I think you've mistyped.

I suspect you were trying to patronize me in the post above, but mistakenly addressed it to TANK.

Not a problem though. I mean, nobody's perfect.
Subject: Oh NO!


Author:
TrevortheGreat of Trevor's Corner
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 03:33:27 01/02/03 Thu
Patronize? Dont flatter yourself. Consider it more of a rebuttal. And yes, I take full responsibility for the typo. Oh, and I missed a question mark too, for those of you keeping score.
Subject: Only important thing....


Author:
Mithril49
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 09:07:53 01/02/03 Thu
The only important thing people should be keeping score of here this week is Clan Battleaxe winning the championship in our very own 49ers Paradise Fantasy league....

No, no...autographs, please. :)

(Just a tension breaker hehe)

Mithril49
Subject: This and That


Author:
Jim Burke
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 09:32:29 01/02/03 Thu
Uncle Kevin- No luck in your wish for Marcus Jones he is on the Bills roster and signed for a couple of years. He is sitting out the season though.

Trev- I agree with you about Jake Plummer, all he does is throw int's. I'll take the checkdowns.

A question I'd like to ask everyone is. Which WR will we draft? There looks to be alot of guys to choose from, who do you think can step in a make an impact?

I'n not happy with the back-up QB's we have Rattay looked good for a bit, but when the game was close, he looked confused. I don't think Doman will amount to much. Hopefully McNown can live up to expectations. What do you guys think of Rex Grossman, not to many people have talked about him this year, he was a heisman candidate last year. I like his arm and he feels the pressure, mobile in the pocket and very accurate. Just a thought.

Go Niner
Out!
Subject: Dang


Author:
Uncle Kevin
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 15:29:38 01/02/03 Thu
Jim

Dang, I missed the Jones signing with the Bills clean.

Thanks.
Subject: New QB's


Author:
THENINES
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 15:51:27 01/02/03 Thu
All this talk about drafting a new qb, what's the point? Who's to say that what we have won't work! Look at the success of Pennington, Brady, Warner all sat behind the main guy waiting for their chance to shine...
Rattay will be a 4yr player in the same system next year. Doman, who Steve Young still raves about, has yet to show what he has. McNown is under the guidance of Walsh, who is excited about having a pet project.
QB camp should be pretty intense in the off season. There's no way JG can be secure about his position after the year he has had. So forget the QB talk, i think we have we have other positions in greater need....

Even though the Giants are playing well i think we win on sunday!!!
Subject: Trevor Talks of Castoffs...


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:11:12 01/02/03 Thu
Hey Great One, I don't know where you got the impression I would replace Garcia with Plummer. Your salary cap rebuttal pretty much echoes my earlier comments from shortly after the recent Arizona-49ers game. More recently I have stated:

"My prediction: the 49ers will draft another QB in one of the first three rounds this year. Cade McNown is the wild card. If he projects to be a starter, then forget I said this. But, if he is merely a backup, then somehow, somewhere, the 49ers will be looking for a QBOTF." Archives: pg. 2, 18:26:54 12/31/02 TUE

Trevor asks, "when has LDE ever been cited as a spot of weakness?"

I don't expect the front office to come out and say it, and the print media may be a bit behind the curve, but the 49ers' radio announcers (Gary Plummer) and other local talk show hosts regularly comment on the frustrating lack of a consistant pass rush other than Andre Carter. I could argue argue that we replace Bryant Young and Dana Stubblefield, but I doubt that would please you (or address the pass rush). Fact is, Okeafor is undersized and isn't an impact player. He is ideally a backup, situational player, who is at his best when rested with fresh legs. That is why Carter probably has taken twice as many snaps as Okeafor this season. Engelberger? Starting experience? That isn't the standard. JJ Stokes has "starting experience..."

As for the offensive line, I am not really satisfied with what "several major writers" say. All I know is that Jeff Garcia doesn't feel secure behind this line and describes his experience as "fighting for survival." All I know is that our rushing game is no longer ranked #1 in the NFC, #2 in the NFL.

Yes, LDE and OT are always cited as problem areas on this forum. And, they were listed as areas of concern after last season.

"Hearst carried only 13 times, and it became clear fairly early that the offensive line could not sufficiently excavate Gilbert Brown, Santana Dotson, Vonnie Holliday or Cletidus Hunt to create the running lanes to which Hearst had become accustomed." Ray Ratto, SF Chronicle, 01/14/02

"We weren't able to control the lne of scrimmage today." Jeff Garcia quoted in same Ratto column.

Below, is Ira Miller's summary of where the 49ers stood after the loss to Green Bay (SF Chronicle, 01/14/02):

"The first area we have to get faster and stronger is our nickel and dime (defense) teams on the field," Donahue said.

"Not that the 49ers are perfect in other areas. They have never put much emphasis on offensive tackles, instead getting by with converted guards, good coaching and quick-footed quarterbacks. But the Packers exploited that; their defensive line dominated the 49ers' offensive line, and the 49ers couldn't do much against Gilbert Brown, Green Bay's 345-pound lardbucket at nose tackle."

"The Packers' run defense had been poor the second half of the season, but they controlled the line and held the 49ers, second in the NFL in rushing yardage, to just 71 yards, half their average."

"Another playmaker to complement Terrell Owens would also be a nice addition, but Donahue said, "In my mind, there are other priorities...We've come a long way. And we've a long way to go."

Back to the present, 01/02/03. I think the 49ers' offensive line has been dominated by on several occasions this year (San Diego, Green Bay, Philadelphia, St. Louis, and Denver come immediately to mind). Aside from Ratto, Garcia and Miller's obvious reference to the inadequacies of the offensive line, there are three areas of need highlighted by "several major writers," a general manager and a quarterback after last season's end:

1. Donahue cited getting "faster and stronger in our nickel and dime teams..." An obvious assumption is cornerback, but could Donahue also be talking about the pass rush? I argue that LDE is a critical part of "stronger" nickel and dime teams, so Trevor and I disagree. Bottom line, did Donahue improve our nickel and dime teams? NO!

2. Ratto, Garcia and Miller all mentioned the offensive line. Donahue cryptical acknowledged other priorities. Did Donahue improve the o-line? Let's ask Jeff Gacia...

3. Miller argued for a playmaker compliment to Owens. Did Donahue heed his advice? NO!

To paraphrase Trevor's words: "This team does have some needs ... LDE and OT are always cited as problem areas around this site. Hopefully someday Donahue will learn."
Subject: Jim Burke


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:37:59 01/02/03 Thu
JB: You asked about WR's in the draft? With the 26th pick in the first round, we are looking at someone like Okla St. WR Rashaun Woods, Tennessee's Kelly Washington (drops due to injury), and possibly Illinois' Brandon Lloyd. I think Penn State's Bryant Johnson would be a reach. I had hped that Fresno State's Bernard Berrian would come out this year, but he wants to be a Bulldog next year.

In the second round, with the 57th pick, the 49ers could nab a receiver like Doug Gabriel, Billy Mullen, Taylor Jacobs or Tallman Gardner. Some like Stanford's 6'7" Teyo Johnson, but I fear he is like JJ Stokes, and won't get seperation at the next level. Maybe he will become a tight end, but that wasn't your question.

I would package the third round pick with either the first OR the second to secure the man we want...kinda like Walsh did so many years ago to get Jerry Rice.

Marcus Jones may not be available, but former Arizona DE Andre Wadsorth sat out the past season and may attempt a comeback this year. Donahue could offer him an incentive laden contract.

Donahue needs to be aggressive. He cannot bank on gettting draft picks for Mariucci.
Subject: 9ers


Author:
Bryan - Admin
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:11:25 01/02/03 Thu

Hey all,
just got in after a long trip home. Site won't be updated till tommorow but I wanted to show my face in here.

Happy New Year everyone,
and great to see the banter was for the most part well kept in here.

This just in Winborn placed on the IR and we re-signed Sutherland.

Subject: Holmoe


Author:
SoCal Dave
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:53:15 01/02/03 Thu
Unkle Kevin,

Did Mariucci and Holmoe work together at Cal? What is Holmoe doing these days?

If the Niners lose this weekend, I can see one of two things happening. Either Mooch gets a contract extension, but is forced to fire some of his assistants. (I'm hoping Mora will be gone) or Mariucci is traded to another team for draft picks and cash. Like Gruden.

However, with only Cinci and Jacksonville jobs available, I don't see this as very likely. Although, Mooch did coach Brunell at Green Bay.

If I had my druthers, I'd like to see Mooch come back, but with a new defensive coordinator.
Subject: Mooch and his staff


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:10:37 01/02/03 Thu
In an article in todays Santa Rosa Press Democrat Matt Maiocco says that TEAM SOURCES have said that part of the negotiations for a new contract for Mooch might include recommendations from the team that he fire some of his assistants! He also states that Eddie was set to fire Mooch if he lost the 1999 1st round playoff game to Green Bay that we won with that pass from Young to T.O.in the last few seconds and he said that if they lost that game Eddie was going to hire Holmgren to replace Mooch.And he also mentions that the team was fine with the idea of letting him go to Tampa last year for picks and then being able to pick a coach of THEIR choosing.

Knapp,Rathman,Stewart,DeHaven,Board,Smith(LB's) and Batta(TE's) all have contracts that run out after this season is over.

I know there is sentiment on this forum to get rid of Knapp and DeHaven(I agree). I hope they keep Rathman. Does anybody else have any strong opinions on who should be retained and who should be sent packing IF Mooch stays? And who should be brought in to run the offense??? I think Mooch will probably be retained especially since Millen has indicated that Morningwig will be the head coach in Detroit next year.Who knows,if Mooch doesn't like the team messing with his staff he may just wind up at Michigan State.This whole thing could turn out to be a real mess or it could turn out really great like it did for the Raiders last year.Whatever happens it will be a fun soap opera to watch in the off season again.I hope at the very least we get someone on the staff who has great OC credentials and can make the offense a lot less predictable and less vanilla starting next year.
BEAT THE GIANTS ! And pleeeease PLAY ALL 4 QTR'S THIS WEEK ! ! ! TIM
Subject: Interesting


Author:
Anthony49
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:14:22 01/02/03 Thu
Interesting stuff there ...

"There is no way Garcia can feel secure about his starting position this summer with the year he has had."

Yes ...

Let's review this allegedly horrible year of Garcia's.

Of Eligible QB's, Garcia now has the highest TD-to-INT ratio in history.

He is second only to Favre in consecutive starts.

He is second only to Favre in number of wins since last season.

Over the past 2 seasons, no QB has more 4th Quarter comebacks to his credit.

While his stats were not as impressive as last year, they still ranked amongst the top 10 in the NFL in every meaningful category.

And if Garcia starts another 3-5 years for this team, his career stats will be nearly identical to Montana and Young.

Let's review this allegedly terrible year statistically now.

J. Garcia, SF 328 528 62.1 3344 6.33 76 21 4.0 10 1.9 17 93 85.6

BOY!!!!!!

WHAT A TERRIBLE YEAR!!!!

(not)

Also consider that he had the flu one game, had to leave, and only played one series monday night.

Regardless.

I'm sure he's just quaking in his boots worried about his starting job for next season.

Especially considering the 9'ers are committed to him via the Salary Cap.

C'mon people, let's be realistic here.

Garcia did not have as good a year as he had last year, but he still had a pro-bowl caliber season, and this team isn't doing anything without him in the playoffs.

A lot of people are talking about the drafting of another QB to groom.

Frankly, i don't see it happening this year, unless Walsh eyes a potential gem in the 3rd or 4th round. They are NOT going to invest a high pick in a QB, mark my words.

My own personal prediction for the QB future of the 9'ers?

I personally think that barring injury, Garcia will be the starter of this team for the next 3-5 seasons. In that time period, Cade McNown will be given the time to mature, grow, and fully heal from his near career-ending injury. After Garcia retires (or is 'helped' to retire), McNown will be the new 49'er starter. With Doman being the homeboy groomed behind him.

Rattay looks like another Steve Bono in the making, and because of his low cap figure, and heady play, he's likely to be a great backup QB for us for many years.
Subject: Uncle Kevin!


Author:
Anthony49
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:21:23 01/02/03 Thu
Hey, you owe me mail! ;-)

re: Jake Plummer

i don't see the 49'ers making a run at him.

you know how i feel about Jake, too. His potential and talent has just been shat down the outhouse in Arizona.

But I think the 49'er dream of Jake (started by Walsh) is all but over.

Why?

I expect several clubs to make a run at Jake for the STARTER's position -- clubs like Denver. 49'ers would never offer more than backup-plus-incentive money to Jake.

The Jake 49'er dream is over, methinks.

As to Brian Griese,

I hear lots of people on this site and others talk about Brian Griese.

Ummmmmmmmmm ...

if Shanahan, one of *THE* shrewdest evaluators of offensive talent in the NFL doesn't want Griese, why would we?

Griese has more weapons and a better offensive line than just about ANYBODY in the NFL, imho. That team is ***DEEP***. There is absolutely *NO* reason that it should be near .500 post Elway.

Well.

There is one reason.

Post Elway.

And Griese.

(make that two reasons)

Denver is loaded with talent, and has disappointed every year with Griese. If Garcia had that kind of talent, he'd be a happy man. (moreover, Shahanan has spoke very highly of Garcia on a number of occasions, so I suspect Shanahan would agree).

We need to upgrade the talent on offense, not waste time making QB switches.

And after devoting the last 3 drafts to defense, is anybody really that surprised that the offense is suffering?

We need some impact players on offense, particularly on the line, and receiving options.
Subject: Bronson will start, Bryan


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:31:51 01/02/03 Thu
Mora has said that Zack Bronson WILL start against the Giants!!! I hope he doesn't need time to get in sinc and back in football shape because its now or never in the playoffs.

Bryan: Winborn on IR and not coming back for the playoffs at all??? RATS! And is Vinnie signed or did they just try him out? And who will play in Webster's place if he doesn't come around in the next few days? Rumph??? RATS! TIM
Subject: Stuff!


Author:
49ertothecore
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:44:01 01/02/03 Thu
Bryan - welcome back, glad to have you back. Hope you got some rest and enjoyed your break.

Anthony49 - yes, Garcia has accrued some nice stats over the past 3 years. IMHO he didn't deserve to be a pro-bowler this year. How many times has he flopped when we really needed him in a "big game" against a "strong opponent", you can quote all the stats you want but until Garcia starts delivering when it counts the most, all he will ever be is a decent starter that can win against weaker opponents. I sure hope he "shuts me up" this year, starting this Sunday against the NY Giants and doesn't stop. I do agree that if we put stronger talent aside Garcia & Mooch the 49ers would do better, I just don't know how much talent it will take to compensate for Garcia & Mariucci's weaknesses. I will defer other comments until we see how the 49ers do this year in the playoffs, it's obvious there needs to be changes and upgrades but where and with whom will be the questions.

TANK & TREVOR - regarding Okeafor, it seems like to me if he does get there to make a play (a big if) he doesn't finish it, the QB/RB/WR gets away from what appears to be a sure tackle or he gets duped out of his socks. We definitely need to upgrade the LDE position.
Subject: Tank


Author:
Bob
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:49:32 01/02/03 Thu
I think Kelley Washington might drop to us.

He is so good and has so much potential I'd draft up to secure him.

He is the next Terrel Owens:Big strong Fast

Without Winborn and a rusty Bronson I think we are facing another first round loss.

I hope so dearly I am wrong.

You do not understand what will happen if we lose this game
Subject: garcia regressing


Author:
james
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:49:54 01/02/03 Thu
guys, it is clear to me that jeff has been exposed by the rest of the nfl. His qb rating is only slightly above average, and has gone down the last two years. The only game in which i truly felt happy about his performance was the raider game. I thought it was truly telling that although he looked somewhat rob johnson-ish in the pocket, rattay's long td throw was a far better pass than garcia is capable of. Garcia does not have the arm strength to scare defenses. It is simple. Our offense's ypa stat is its lowest in almost twenty years. Garcia's attempt at long throws are feeble, wobbly ducks. Rattay, who by no means possesses a gun, threw a beautiful tight spiral, garcia's lack of arm strength makes it impossible for him to throw a pass more than twenty yards without it being a duck. The NFL has him figured out, its sad that are supposed talent gurus weren't smart enough to cash in on his inflated evaluation and instead signed him to a ridiculous contract which makes it almost impossible to go in a different direction. I pray McNown can somehow fulfill his promise. I saw him play in college, and he was special, he had plenty of arm, i remember him lofting deep passes all over the place with beautiful touch and accuracy, something garcia possess none of. It almost makes me sick to think how destructive owens could be if we had a daunte culpepper or a vick or anybody with a strong arm to guide this team. yes, garcia is a tough, dependable guy, but i even question his leadership, how many of his teammates can respect a guy who constantly misses throws and throws cheezy on-field temper tantrums.
Subject: Round and Round we go ...


Author:
Anthony49
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 19:14:51 01/02/03 Thu
49ertothecore,

You mean, kind of like his game against the raiders, which he singlehandedly won with his legs?

Or the game against the Raiders a couple years ago when the FG kicker botched a sure-win in OT?

Or the game against San Diego when he brought the team to sure victory only to have the FG kicker blow it?

Did I mention that he leads the league in 4th Quarter comebacks over the past 2 seasons?

James,

For such a weak arm, Garcia sure didn't have trouble leading the league last year in plays over 20 yards ...

Interesting, eh?

And yes, many of those were slants, but NOT ALL. I didn't seem to see Garcia have much trouble with deeper patterns last season.

And how explosive would TO be with someone else?

Interesting question ... my followup?

How *LESS* explosive would TO be with somebody else?

TO, in every interview he has had, praises Garcia for their chemistry and their ability to make big plays together.

Hell, most of TO's big plays *come* from Garcia winging it back there in desperate situations.

Please.

This is a tired subject -- as to Garcia's alleged poor QB rating, check the stats again. 4th highest in the NFC, and top 10 in the NFL ... incidentally identical to Favre.

Yes, Garcia has had something of an off year, but he's a victim of his own success -- he played better last year, but his performance this year has *********hardly********** been the reason for this team's 10-6 record. (hardly bad in of itself).

The 49'ers ***********lead the NFL************** in converting 3rd downs offensively.

Ummmmm, shouldn't Garcia get the bulk of credit for that? Especially considering much of that happens when he scrambles?

And the 49'ers defense is ***********the worst*********** in the NFL in stopping 3rd downs.

Go ahead and convince yourselves that Garcia is the problem with the team.

Rather than respond again, feel free to refer to these posts for my reponses -- because I'll say the same thing.

This team has *so* much more to worry about than Garcia. The fact that in most big games it's offensive and defensive lines have been MANHANDLED and the 4th quarter pass defense gives up leads like they were used car pamphlets seem to me to be more pressing needs, than worrying about the 49'ers QB, who even in an off year, is amongst the NFL's best.

Silliness.
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