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The 49ers played a crazy game this past Sunday and it may take all week before us fans can really let the adrenaline slip. But in the mean time it makes for great conversation. This week we’ll be talking about the greatest comeback in 49ers playoffs history, and of course we’ll be looking forward to the big showdown against the Bucs. Come on by the 49ers Paradise Forum and have your say!

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Subject: Teller


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 13:29:48 12/22/02 Sun

Teller: If the Niners win the SB this year it will be in spite of Mooch not because of his coaching it will be because everything went right and we had luck on our side. It would be because the players rolled right over the roadblock that Mooch and his staff have put in their way.So I see it as very logical that a better coach would give us a better chance to win it all year in and year out and would also give us back a team that would be fun to watch again instead of wanting to break my TV every week because of the inactivity of the coaches minds.Even if we do win this year I would rather see a better coach come in who would give the team a boost instead of draining the life out of it. So when I say even if he is the SB winning coach I would like him to go it is because I believe we would have won more consistently and been much better prepared for the big games(and every game)and been a much better team overall with a better coach.I have tried to not have a closed mind on this issue but everytime I resolve to give Mooch another chance to convince me he kicks me in the butt.He is boring. That's why I have said that if the team wants to keep him as head coach because he is a good guy to put up in front of the media and because he is a players coach so he will draw free agents to the team and keep our own free agents from leaving then at least the GM should make him bring in O and D coordinators that can gameplan and call the plays during the games and let Mooch be the figurhead coach.York may sign Mooch to a 10 year contract and then I will just have to hope for the best and hope that we have such good players that they can overcome the obstacles that their head coach places in front of them not to mention overcoming the obstacles that the opossing team puts in front of them each week(Too bad they have to do both to win). GO NINERS, No matter who our coach is!!! But if I had my wish I would prefer someone else that is hand picked by Bill Walsh.We don't always get what we wish for but that doesn't stop me from wishing and I am sorry if you don't like it when I wish out loud on this forum.That's life! TIM

Subject: Sean


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 13:51:00 12/22/02 Sun

Sean: Maybe Webster reacted poorly to being moved out of his posistion whenever they brought in Rumph in nickle and dime situations.Maybe he was just starting to "get it" when he had to learn and adjust to a whole new defensive setup(with him moving around from outside to inside and then back again).Maybe he is not adaptable to new situations and they just need to let him play the posistion that he finally had begun to master.Just a thought ,I may be totally wrong ,but you asked for ideas on why he seems to have regressed.Maybe the coaches have realized their mistake because it seems to me that Webster has been back at his corner spot a lot more often and Rumph has been playing more on the inside the last few weeks. If they leave him there maybe he will get back in the groove he seemed to be getting in before the shuffle began. TIM

Subject: Webster Getting His Groove On...


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 15:11:28 12/22/02 Sun

TIM: You are way too predictable. There you go blaming the coaches for Webster's struggles. Julian Peterson plays four or five different positions in one game, from DE and OLB, to nickel LB, SS and CB, and nobody complains about the coaching or makes excuses for the player; but Webster is affected by Rumph? Webster had a full summer camp and entire season to figure it out. Besides, Brett Favre exposed Webster in the playoff game at Lambeau while Rumph was sitting in a classroom at the University of Miami. Webster has his short comings and it has nothing to do with coaching. As Sporting News' 2002 Season Preview said, "Webster wasn't half-bad, either." They were luke warm on Webster before Rumph, too.

Garcia made the Pro Bowl, but everyone knows that Favre and Michael Vick are the two most dominant QB's in the NFC. If Donovan "Player of The Week" McNabb hadn't been injured, he would have been invited (ala the "Winborn and Bronson rationale"). Brad Johnson is also having a better season than Garcia. If Kurt Warner hadn't imploded, I think Garcia could easily have been sitting in Gilroy this February.

Subject: Heitmann moved his feet!


Author:
Uncle Kevin
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 16:29:13 12/22/02 Sun

Heitmann moved his feet! I saw it! He got himself beyond the line and took out a linebacker!

Man, I've been waiting to see if he could/would do that at this level all year. Now that was encouraging.

If this kid can get just a bit more fanatical in the weightroom in the off season...he could turn into something.

Parrish is amazing. If Bronson could stay on the field I think we could have the safety postion locked down for the next five years.

Streets and Wilson are NFL receivers. Maybe not Stars, or media darlings...but these two guys can play.

There are a lot of positives about this team.

But I still don't buy the idea that we're ready for Prime Time.

TANK

After watching Jake Plummer against the Niners twice this year...and after watching a couple of his other games...I see a talented guy who is alone out there on offense. His offensive line has been destroyed. He's handing the ball off to a promising, but inexperienced free agent rookie running back. His Wide Receivers...heck, has he even had time to learn any of their names?

And yet, he put up 14 points against us yesterday, and damned near manufactured an amazing comeback against us last time.

I won't press it, because as I've said...I don't know if the Cards are interested in releasing him, and I don't really know if the Niners are interested in signing him.

I just think he's a guy who could take this team...what's the cliche?...that next step.

Subject: UK and Jake


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 17:01:17 12/22/02 Sun

I just can't see both Jake and Jeff, and their respective salaries, on the same roster...and I am not ready to cast off Garcia.

Subject: Parrish, Peterson...


Author:
D-roc
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 19:59:17 12/22/02 Sun

Parrish has really played well all year making us all forget Lance. I really think that he along with plummer are going to be the next great defensive backs in 49er's history. He is all over the place, and just makes play after play, and he hits like a mac truck!!! I ams really glad we picked up this up this quality/classact player! Movin on, seemed like if Parrish was not tackling someone Peterson was! This guy has really steped up his game this year! Happy he made the pro bowl! Really lookin forward to the playoffs, i think that if we play the SAINTS in the 1st round we hammer them with the run and win the game goin away! I watched the SAINTS play the BUNGLES today, and they made the BUNGLES look like a team that was 12-4, and headed to the playoffs! They really gave up alot of yards on the ground! Finally, sitting here watching the Raiders play the Broncos, and wishing that our beloved 49ers played offense the way the Broncos do! They are not afraid to take a shot long, but can also pound you with Portis... Didn't we play a similar style of west coast offense when SHANAHAN was our offensive coordinator?!... They are exciting to watch! This is a great game, and i think the NINERS play the winner in the bowl?!!!! Bring on the playoffs! D-roc

Subject: Ya know.....


Author:
Mithril49
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Date Posted: 00:50:10 12/23/02 Mon

For all that we like to complain (myself included at times) I couldnt help but notice:

At least we didnt lose to the Bungals :)

Oh yeah, and we managed another double digit win season, won our division, beat some impressive teams, and played some other impressive teams rather well.

And yet....we complain heh. I bet ya the Saints would LOVE to have our "problems" right now.

I say to the nether regions with the 37% of people I saw voted the 9ers would lose in the first round (som pregame thing today on TV). Gonna enjoy proving em all wrong.

Subject: TANK


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 15:30:38 12/23/02 Mon

TANK: I didn't say that it was inevitable that Winborn and Bronson would be selected to the pro bowl,I simply said that IF they had remained healthy and continued to play the way they were before they were injured they had a VERY good chance of being selected.That is simply a fact and I don't see why you and fearyaks felt it necessary to challenge that statenent! The only reason I brought it up in the first place is to challenge your assertion that our team does not have enough talented players and therefore our great head coach doesn't have the talent to work with . In response to your opinion I mentioned that we have the second most players of any team going to the pro bowl(6) and we have Beasley chosen as an alternate and nobody would have been surprised if Deese,Plummer,Carter or Parrish would have been picked and if Williams had not been hurt he may have been picked since he was leading the league as a punt returner.and of course I also mentioned that without the injuries to Winborn and Bronson they both would have been in line to be picked since they were playing great at the time of their injuries(especially Winborn). That's 14+ players that could have been picked from the Niners.Beasley and Parrish SHOULD have been picked and lets not forget that Hearst might have gone if he had not been platooned all year long with Barlow and perhaps if Eric Johnson had not had a bad back injury he would have gone on a rampage sooner in the year like he has in the last two games and he might have even had a chance(that's 16 possibles ).So my point was that we have the talent and so your excuse that Mooch just doesn't have the talent is all wet.TIM

Subject: TANK


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 15:51:42 12/23/02 Mon

I agree that Garcia is not having a pro bowl year. I also agree with Ira Miller when he says that Garcia is ONE of the reasons that the offense is not working as well as it should be. ONE of the reasons not THE reason. Mooch is also ONE of the reasons,no doubt about that!. TIM

Subject: Curious Logic


Author:
Tim
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 16:52:38 12/23/02 Mon

So let me get this straight. It's Mariucci's fault that he hasn't gotten more out of all the Pro Bowl players he MIGHT have had if they hadn't missed so much of the season because of injuries. Priceless.

Subject: TIM, Let Me Explain...


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 17:39:21 12/23/02 Mon

TIM: You argue, "The only reason I brought it up (Winborn and Bronson's Pro Bowl talent) in the first place is to challenge your assertion that our team does not have enough talented players and therefore our great head coach doesn't have the talent to work with."

Can you please explain to me how Mariucci could "work with" Winborn and Bronson the past 12 weeks? Let's keep the discussion and analysis to what Mariucci had to work with. He didn't have Winborn and Bronson. How can I make this more clear to you?

As for the 49ers who were named to the Pro Bowl, I would argue that Bryant Young and Jeff Garcia didn't deserve it. You and I can argue that all day, I could cite all the more deserving players who were over looked, and point to all the critics who say the voting process is flawed by popularity/reputation, not actual merit; and you would ultimately win the argument because, fact is, these six Niners have been invited.

Likewise, you can argue all you want about Deese, Plummer, Carter, Beasley, et al., but I win because the facts support me: they didn't get invited.

But, lets focus on the key weaknesses. These are the same weaknesses that we all were aware of all last year and throughout the offseason: (1) nickel and dime pass defense screamed for an upgrade at nickel back; (2) insufficient pass rush screamed for another pass rusher other than Carter; (3) double and triple team on Owens cried for a better #2 option; AND, (4) pressure on Garcia and the low rushing average in crucial games against better teams exposed our undersized o-line that has been ignored for years. If I asked TIM what his 2002 offseason concerns were, I suspect he would agree. If they were concerns, it is likely that deficient talent was the cause. Go back ten months, check the archives, and TIM's concerns will be exposed.

You and your band of Merry Mooch Bashers are critical of play selection, play calling, lack of killer instinct, etc., and you point to Shanahan, Gruden, Holmgren and other for their wide open offenses, yet you fail to acknowledge the disperity and balance in their talent relative to Mariucci's.

Yes, the Raiders are an exciting offense, but Callahan and Trestman enjoy lining up Jerry Rice and Tim Brown, which makes defenses honor both. Shanahan enjoys lining up Rod Smith and McCaffrey, with a dose of Shannon Sharpe for good measure. Our benchmark is Walsh, who had Rice and John Taylor with Brent Jones. Yet, you want to hold Mariucci and Knapp under a microscope but ignore that Streets is a work in progress emerging before our eyes (and he ain't no John Taylor), and Eric Johnson has missed half the season with a bad back. The #2WR and TE are critical elements of the WCO, so how can you even evaluate the coaching and execution of this offense when these critical pieces are missing?

(That question alone is the one I wish TIM would address. When McCaffrey went down last year, nobody looked at the Broncos' offense and said Shanahan forgot how to coach. They all said he lacked the talent...just ONE position, the critical #2WR, that is all it took. Shanahan finished 8-8 despite being loaded with a good offensive line, running backs out the yazoo, Griese and Ferotte, Rod Smith, Eddie Kennison, etc., and nobody questioned his coaching! You know, they say Broncos fans know more about football than Niners fans.)

Fans point to all of Streets receptions, but that is a credit to Garcia, Mariucci and Knapp, not a testament to how good Streets is. He clearly isn't the impact player that John Taylor was. Anybody who has ever played fantasy football can attest that lots of receivers come and go with pumped up numbers. Even JJ Stokes had over 70 receptions one year, and we know what a fraud he is.

Then there is the Garcia factor. Real or perceived, he admits he doesn't feel safe behind the 49ers line. In his words, ""I play the game with a survival-type mode." That isn't the fault of coaching...it is a talent issue.

Finally, on defense, you can have all the studs you want, but if their is a weakness, Bill Walsh says it can be exploited and beaten. On this Niners team, the pass defense is atrocious because they can't manufacture a pass rush or defend the third receiver. Any coach will tell you, you are only as strong as your weakest point, and that point is Chike Okeafor/John Engelberger and Mike Rumph. Do I need to explain this in further detail? Surely you can appreciate the short comings of these three players...they didn't make your expanded Pro Bowl roster.

Ahmed Plummer, Tony Parrish, Julian Peterson and Andre Carter can play there butts off, but if Favre/McNabb/Johnson are given the time, and Rumph/Williams/Holman gives up the first down or touchdown reception, then you have to conclude that what the coaches have to work with just isn't enough.

Just look at the teams with the best records. It is so obvious. They have two receivers AND a solid running game. They have a quarterback that is confident behind his line. They have a pass rush and quality at least three deep at cornerback.

PS - What ever talent Jimmy Williams brought to special teams, Cortez, Baker and Chandler more than negated.

Subject: TIM, If You Agree About Garcia...


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 18:14:01 12/23/02 Mon

TIM: It was nice to see you agree with Ira Miller that Garcia is ONE of the probems with the 49ers' offense. Look a bit more closely at how he explains Steve Young's impatience affecting the offense, and you will see all that you lament about the current offense:

"During his early seasons with the 49ers, Steve Young's natural impatience inhibited the team's offense. He was too quick to run from the pocket, causing the offense to operate in spurts instead of running smoothly, as plays often were not permitted to develop the way they were designed."

Remove Young's name and insert Garcia's.

* "causing the offense to operate in spurts instead of running smoothly,"

* "plays often were not permitted to develop the way they were designed."

So, if Garcia is responsible for this, then what is Mariucci being blaed for? Predictably running on second and long situations? If that is all you got against the man, then you certainly cannot justify running him out of town without a better option in the bag.

Subject: TIM & TANK!


Author:
49ertothecore
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 18:40:07 12/23/02 Mon

I think you both are right. In a perfect world we could bring in the best coaches and best personnel money could buy but here we're coming out of Salary Cap hell and have to try to be patient and hope to heck the powers that be get their act together and what is right and best for the 49ers.

TANK you're right about the personnel deficencies and Donahue's conservatism in going after what we really needed (Nickel & Dime DB's) and a #2 WR. We're as only strong as our winkest link has certainly and glaringly been exposed this year. On any given play it is 11 v 11, and if everybody is not pulling their weight it becomes a feeding frenzy and boy have we been feasted upon this year.

TIM you're right also, because if we had better coaching I think the 49ers would be "funner" to watch and getting maximum utilization out of each player.

Like I said earlier, Mooch had the comfort of Steve Young, Jerry Rice, Hearst, etc. to pretty much stay out of the way and let them do what they have been doing for years.
It's obvious we've needs in coaching and personnel, the question is, what decisions is the brass going to make? I think if Mooch had a more talented NFL QB who could do some of the things Garcia can't do, he probably would be more comfortable and prone to open things up and be more creative, as I watched Plummer vs Garcia, I couldn't help but think how much more polished Plummer looked in doing some of the things NFL QB's are supposed to be able to do and think if we could somehow pick up Plummer and market Garcia, that might be a quicker fix and long term answer to are QBOTF. I think Plummer, like Hearst before him, was unfortunate going to a franchise like the Cardinals. I do think Mooch does have some enviable qualities and maybe upgrading the QB position would be a better solution. And yes lets upgrade the OL this year during the draft and FA. What do you guys think?

TANK - I also think LDE is an area that has bo be addressed, Okeafor & Engelberger just aren't getting the results we need.

Subject: Holidays


Author:
Julie B.
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 18:45:17 12/23/02 Mon

Happy Holidays everyone!! (UK, Win, SoCal and Anthony too!!!)

Subject: Whats the world coming too


Author:
RageFX
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 22:29:09 12/23/02 Mon

Plummer over Garcia I can't believe educated football fans are actually suggesting this.

Look at both of them and you'll see that the two are very similar but at the same time play with a slightly different version of the same playing style. I will credit Plummer on his natral abilities and some of those unbelieveable plays that he pulls off. Also he plays with a much more polished and calm looking style than Garcia, but looks aren't everything. However Plummer would never(mabey) be sucessful on our team for the simple reason that he is way to reckless with the ball and makes some God awful choices. Also I'm not sure if this is something that he can even change because thats the way he plays almost like he is still in college, its a mindset and thats a hard thing to change. An argument can be made that Plummer plays the way he does because his team always puts him in a hole, most of his career he has had to come from behind to win. I think he has made like 22 comeback wins in his time in NFL which is impressive.

Overall both QBs have similar talents and playing styles but Garcia makes better choices even though he does at times play very conservative. The biggest advantage I see in Plummer's favor is age and the distant possibly that he could be molded into what we want him to be.

In the End its not going to happen because we have more pressing needs right now and it probly shouldn't beause I think Doman, our current QB project, has a better chance of working out for us at a much lower cost.

I Think if we were to aquire Plummer he would amaze us and piss us off at the same time (sound fimilar?) and after a year or two you would all be calling for his head probly even more intensely than you are now with Garcia.

One QB that I think would have looked great in a Niner uniform - Chad Pennington man that kid has it all and again Walsh saw it.

Subject: Pennington is a gem!


Author:
49ertothecore
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 23:23:37 12/23/02 Mon

RageFX - I agree with you on Pennington, he sure looks awfully good for a 3rd year QB. We opted for Julian Peterson at #16 and Pennigton went at 21 if I remember correctly.

I think Garcia will continue to be a heartbreaker, he plays just good enough to give you a little hope and then when he has the chance to do something really nice he chokes.

Walsh was also very high on Plummer. I agree that Plummer has made some bad decisions but I think if he were playing for a time like the NINERS he wouldn't be playing from behind all the time and wouldn't have to try to carry the team, but when we did need him he would come through. He can make all the throws and is pretty mobile. It's almost embarassing to see Jeff throw those wobbly passes when a good NFL QB thow those nice tight spirals. With the NINERS running game and QB coaching I think Jake the Snake would do wonders. I also have high hopes for Doman, but he may be a few years down the road. I think Jake could pick our system up quickly and be off and running. If we can add another dynamic WR of higher quality than Streets, that would just make our offense that much more potent. Maybe he could sway Boston to come with him!

Subject: Not enough offense to erase questions.


Author:
Sydney From Syd's Corner.
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 23:26:26 12/23/02 Mon

The victory over the Arizona Cardinals in Sun Devil Stadium reminded us of how the regular season has been for us, too close to call. Winning this game marginally was another indication that our offense was not clicking on all cylinders. Even with Terrell Owens out and resting his bruised heel and groin it was a performance that left our scoring offense just floating above water.
The victory is simply symbolic having no real circumstances on our own playoff picture but important from the standpoint that morale needed to be elevated and a victory was needed after a bust against Green Bay. Again the San Francisco offense seemed to be a dog with a big bark rather than a dog with a big bite. Even though we had 358 total yards of net offense we only managed to put 17 total points on the board.
Not enough in my view against a team floundering at (5-9), we should have been able to dominate this game and take the game right to this team in the scoreboard category regardless of being without No.#1 playmaker in Terrell Owens. Tai Streets was impressive with eight receptions for 90 total yards and Cedric Wilson in my mind has established just cause for making the third receiver slot with four receptions for 56 total yards.
I really like the play of Wilson not only from a receiving threat standpoint but also from a kick return standpoint as well; he had three kick returns for 79 total yards and a long run of 37 total yards. I think he has shown marked improvement on special teams and should be considered a shoe in for the position. He seems to be able to be in the right place at the right time with the timing routes and audible calls and can create separation.
J.J. Stokes on the other hand mystifies me as to how he can have such a meaningless effect on a game from dropped and missed passes to just not being creative enough to gain separation from aggressive defensive backs. His performance in this game like others is something to be desired, I really am disappointed with his overall efforts as I believe that he has fallen out of grace with this offense and now with many fans as well.
Stokes had only four receptions for 48 total yards with a long reception of 21 total yards not bad you may say for this game but for someone trying to elevate their play to the second tier receiving slot and making big plays consistently he has not existed. He will have to make a big splash in the Monday Night Game in my opinion to start turning the doubters into believers in my opinion.
The San Francisco defense is what kept this game in check and in the end was responsible for delivering this win against Arizona. Tony Parrish surprisingly played while wrapped up from the elbow to the shoulder on one arm and made big stopping hits and a great interception to boot. He really has defined himself in more ways than one and carries the leadership of this defense on his shoulders. The tackles and ends along the defensive line established great pressure on Plummer with a total of five sacks recorded.
Jeff Garcia played exciting football and was successful in third down efficiency turning 55% of those plays as he passed for 256 total yards and established a quarterback rating of 76%. Not bad but completion wise it could have been better had certain receivers caught the ball as passed to them deemed receivable. The offensive line was also solid in protecting him allowing only one sack to seep through the line and allowing him time to make plays.
In the rushing category we did an average job of turning 106 total yards with Kevan Barlow leading the pack with 50 total yards. It seemed like the Arizona defense did a very good job throughout the game of containing our running game forcing us to seek alternate plays to move the ball down the field. From a production standpoint we only averaged 3.2 yards per carry against their defense where we should’ve been averaging near 4-4.5 yards per carry in all honesty.
Jeff Chandler continued to add worry to our special teams as he missed a pair of 42-yard field goal attempts that would’ve established a comfortable lead down the stretch and would’ve helped our scoring offense efficiency overall. He continues to cast shadows on our faith in drafting him and allowing him to be the full time starter in place of fired Jose Cortez.
The concerns that were there with Cortez are identical with Chandler. He will have to shake this syndrome soon in the next game in order to instill faith again in both coaches and fans alike. Kickoff special unit coverage again is concern as the Cardinals averaged 19.8-yards on returns simply too much to be allowed and putting Arizona in favorable field position.
On defense our linebackers in Smith, Peterson and Ulbrich deserve a lot of praise for their speed and tackling abilities, they proved to be a great barrier to progress for the Arizona offense throughout the game. I came away confidant that this unit will be fine come playoff time as we mend with Rasheed and Winborn in the mix.
Overall we managed to add a win to our win column but we didn’t scare anyone either nor have we really scared any team throughout this league. It lends a strange enigma to us as leaders of our division and casts a shadow as to our dominance there as a whole. We are considered underdogs to everyone unless proven otherwise. We need to find answers to our offensive stagnation and get it moving with the most contributing personnel.

Subject: TANK


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 00:03:54 12/24/02 Tue

You were refering to our chances in the playoffs this year when you said Mooch doesn't have the talent to do well. Therefore all players who return from injury who are good players(Winborn,Bronson etc.) would apply to my arguement that he has enough talent to work with (especially compared to other teams in the league)to do well and that lack of talent on the Niners is a BOGUS arguement.All teams have injuries this time of year and if Mooch is so good then he needs to find ways to win in the playoffs with the players he has (and I hope he does).You have been making that lack of talent arguement for quite a while now. Some of the talented players who are now out for the season or are now injured were not even injured when you first started argueing that Mooch was short on talented players on his roster.Besides all this ,what I am saying is that all those other coaches you mention would do a BETTER job than Mooch of bringing out the talent we have on the roster NOW and in the future.As a matter of fact I think YOU would make a better game planner and play caller than Mooch!And don't forget that I thought Mooch was just a less than average coach even when he had Young and Rice etc.With the talent we had in those years I thought he could have gotten a lot more out of them(and Rice has said as much over the past few years after he left the team and as you know many players who are still on the team have been so frustrated by his coaching that they have spoken up even though they are still on the team now and might be reluctant to really speak their minds).He is not the worst coach in the NFL but I believe he is holding the team back and that we could do soooo much better .You think he belongs in the hall of fame for doing sooo well with such an inferior bunch of 3rd rate players and I think he has(except for a couple rebuilding years)had close to or more talent than anyone in the league.Coaching is even more important now than it has ever been because in this salary cap era when the NFL wants every team to be even with all other teams sometimes the only difference between winning and losind the big games is in the coaching(we are usually out coached badly in those games).Since we all know that our talent level is pretty darn good on the Niners with all those pro bowl players we have and many others who are good enough to be considered for the all star roster then I don't see why (if the coach is so great) that you and others have to start making excuses for his failure even before he fails.Maybe it's because you fear that he will fail because deep inside you know that he is not that talented a coach.I,on the other hand expect more out of him than you do.If he is so great and is worth the MILLIONS he is being paid then I expect to see more than I have seen over the past 6 years just like I expect to see Garcia play better and expect to see T.O. stop dropping so many passes etc. etc. In my opinion and from what I see and hear and read most people agree that Mooch is holding this team back and probably will never add anything special to the mix.I hope we get a different coach next year and if not then I hope we get at least an offensive coordinator to come in who will add something special to the mix and give the team that boost it needs that the current staff has proven they can't give. You know my opinion and I think most Niner fans agree with me but if you don't then that's ok with me .Maybe now we can talk about another subject,this is getting boring(just like Mooch's offense).TIM

Subject: TIM ! What is your response to this?


Author:
THENINES
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Date Posted: 04:32:05 12/24/02 Tue

This is from Peter King......I think all you naysayers need to ease up on San Francisco coach Steve Mariucci. For human decency, for heaven's sake. Last week, with the 49ers ensconced in their fourth postseason spot in Mariucci's six years, he was asked by a reporter about the rumors regarding his job security. Justifiable query, because there are legitimate questions about whether Mariucci will return to the 49ers in 2003 as a lame duck. "Do you think any other coach who's just clinched a division title has to answer questions about that?" asked Mariucci. On Sunday, the San Francisco Chronicle ran a letter from a Mike Mitchell of Magalia, Calif., that said, in part: "I have been a 49er fanatic since the late 1950s -- they have been the love of my life ... [But] this is a boring football team, and I don't care much about them any longer. If Mariucci continues beyond this season, I will never again waste my money to see this football team." Stat of the year, Mooch-bashers: Bill Walsh averaged 9.2 wins per regular season in 10 years, playing with Joe Montana and Steve Young; Mariucci has averaged 9.5, playing with the latter-day Young and Jeff Garcia. The man, with help from the front office, has presided over the rebuilding of a once-great team that is now good. He has won 13, 12, 4, 6, 12 and 10 (with one game left) games in his six seasons. That should be acceptable, Mike Mitchell. Having praised the man, I now send this one message: Go get a new kicker, Mooch. Jeff Chandler will kill you in the playoffs."

TIM... Granted this team has frustrated us more than usual this season, but i think alot of those 8-7 and 9-6 teams would like to be in our position don't you think?

Subject: 9ers


Author:
Sean
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Date Posted: 06:35:12 12/24/02 Tue

TIM : Sorry while I have found this to be a frustrating season also, I still do not agree that all of the 9er woes should be placed on Mooch's shoulders but we just have different outlooks.

Your view is Mooch should open up the offense, even if Garcia will make long inaccurate throws, and it may also cost us games because the defense is too banged up, and inexperienced to stop the opposition (Let's face it Garcia is not having a good season). You have the confidence in the quality of personnel that we will be successful using this strategy.

Others think Mooch does what he does in order to win games with the present personnel, even if it means winning ugly (Possibly because of a lack of confidence in Garcia's throwing arm, or lack of confidence in the defense or whatever).

Others feel adequate plays are being called to open up the game, but Garcia whether because of a weak throwing arm, or because of lack of confidence to force balls in, or confidence in his receivers, or his OL checks down and just dumps off short passes.

Who knows the real answer. Not me, but nothing you have stated convinces me that you know either.

Hopefully in the offseason we will find out what the 9er front office thinks based on whether: Mooch, or Mora or Knapp or a combination are sent down the road; or Receivers are the prime target in the draft or free agency, or even if a potential starting qb is actively pursued. Maybe then everyone will be happy, although I doubt it.

I have bitches with Garcia, but with this OL I feel he is the best fit we have right now. The lack of sacks given up I believe is a direct result of how hard it is to sack Garcia. If they go for another qb, then they had better upgrade the OL immediately, otherwise we will be like Buffalo with Rob Johnson.

Win

Great to hear from you, and sorry to hear you are still having problems. Had quite a few problems myself this year. The rumour going around is that I am not as young as I used to be. Deep down though I know it is only a rumour.

Anyway a Christmas eve party is about to kick off in a few minutes, so Uncle Kevin, Brian and others I wish to all a peaceful happy holiday.

Brian I look forward to continuing to follow this site during the coming year. You truly do an amazing job. So kick back and enjoy a few days of relaxation because you are going to need it as the season ain't over yet.

Subject: Take it & like it!


Author:
49ertothecore
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Date Posted: 10:29:22 12/24/02 Tue

THENINES - Boy can I identify with Mike Mitchell. When you grow up watching the 49ers of the 80's & earlier 90's this current 49er team is hard to swallow. Obviously there are some good things about the team also. 99 & 00 were hard to take but I think we all realized we were paying our dues for overspending previously. 01 was a pleasant surprise and 02 has been very bittersweet, but at least we won our division and are in the playoffs, but I got to tell you I don't have the warm and fuzzies about it though because of way we haven't performed against better teams and barely squeak by the weaker teams. One good thing though, our defense seems to be coming around and if we can add Bronson, Winborn, Rahsheed back into the mix it should get even better.

Personally, I don't buy into Peter King's assessment of how the 49ers are doing and where they are headed. I also don't think it's fair to tell your fans I know this isn't what you're used to but find a way to like it.

I don't think Garcia is our answer, especially not for the long haul. Mariucci is tolerable if he has the personnel he needs. Mooch & Garcia together for any prolonged period isn't going to work, unless we get such a supporting cast it would be hard for them to screw things up. That's not the way you should build a team and a future by settling for someone that can barely get by, some of the time. Right or wrong the 49er fan base has been privileged and spoiled to have one of the most successful winning franchises and to settle for and shoot for anything less is not acceptable. So ya, if the 49ers owners and management stubbornly resist "change" for the better then you might see some fans "tune out". I love the 49ers but if I see the powers that be refuse to do what they can to make the 49ers the best they can be, I might get a little disinterested myself. I will always be a 49er fan but my passion is squelched when I see some of the ugly, pathetic football the 49ers seem to play to often.

I hope the NINERS can find a way to turn it up a notch for the playoffs. The way the NFL is today you just don't know or can't make any assumptions. In any given game any team has a chance.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!

Subject: 40 whiners indeed


Author:
Tim
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Date Posted: 11:58:41 12/24/02 Tue

I'm afraid I've had about as much as I can take of this. All season long there have been a handful of people posting on the site complaining about Mariucci. They drum up all kinds of statistics and spurious claims "80% of the fans feel the way I do" to support their lame arguements. They even go so far as to say" I don't care if we win the Super Bowl, Mariucci has to go". My advice to all of you is to follow Mike Mitchell's advice and find another team to root for because what it all seems to boil down to with you guys is that the team isn't "funner" to watch. It's not about wins, it's not about having to play 3/4 of the year without your starting or even sometimes your 2nd string safties on the field. It's not about losing your best nickel linebacker in the fourth game of the season, or your starting guard in the first game. OR not having a player you had relied on for special teams out for more than a month because of injuries that may or may not have been aggravated by his religious beliefs, or having lost your special teams captain to injury in the first few games then having to further deplete that team when you had to move players up to fill in for injured starters. Or having your league leading punt retuner lost for the season just when he was starting to make an impact. And despite what some of you claim, Mariucci has never once used the injuries they've had as an excuse. He has always said every team has injuries you just have to go out and play with what you've got. It's also not about having a QB who has been remarkably inconsistent all year, missing throws and making some decisions that certainly cost them points and in one case might have cost them the game. Or about receivers who drop 3rd down passes and touchdowns when the game is on the line. It's about having fun. Oh, the team doesn't win every game by 20pts anymore, boo hoo. Oh they don't have enough 50yd td passes, boo hoo. Oh, they were only the second team to clinch, their division this year, boo hoo, Oh they only have the second best won and lost record in the league over the past two years, boo hoo. They can only sweep their division if they beat the Rams this week , boo hoo. I think Steve Young said it best, he said it was never good enough just to win in San Francisco, you had to win with "style points" as well. That certainly seems to be true around here and I must say it really is pathetic.

Subject: Recommended Reading


Author:
Win
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Date Posted: 13:05:00 12/24/02 Tue

For those of you with sufficient hominid dexterity to perform the delicate task of copy-and-pasting, I think the following article will make rewarding reading. It's the best analysis of Jeff Garcia's performance in our offense that I've read this year.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/sports/football/nfl/san_francisco_49ers/4794658.htm

(I still think he might surprise the s**t out of us and take the Niners to the Super Bowl next month.)

Cheers.

Subject: Boooo


Author:
Jim Burke
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Date Posted: 13:36:37 12/24/02 Tue

Ya know its funny, when a team is winning and playing well everyone give the glory to the QB,even when sometimes they don't deserve it and when they're losing he gets the blame. I live about 80 miles from Buffalo and hear this same debate about Drew Bledsoe. The Bills media is killing this guy for the last 5 games, When you give up 5 sacks to one guy I think it might be an O-line issue too. Everyone is blaming GARCIA are you kidding me. I've said this from the start I guarentee that I've seen Garcia play more then anyone in this forum. You have two choices here folks. Garcia can throw it downfield (like Bledsoe), force it (like Bledsoe), get sacked (like Bledsoe, or Rob Johnson) and we can miss the playoffs again. Take your pick! My pick is the playoffs. Is Garcia having a good year? Probably not is the lack of offense totally his fault. Hell no!

Another thing as of late I've heard alot of people taking about our WR's. Owens is without a doubt the best in the league. Streets is a nice compliment and Wilson looks like a capable guy who can make the odd play. Stokes? that's another story. We need to get rid of this guy, he does nothing positive and plays with no passion whatsoever.

I tried last year to give the 49ers a diamond in the rough WR, who is now playing in KC. If anyone saw the KC, San Diego game you would have seen #85 Marc Boerigter, this guy would have been the perfect compliment to Owens he's big, strong and if you saw the highlights fast, 99 yard TD vs. SD outrunning the saftey. It was beautiful! Former CFLer's rock!

I would even go as far to saw his hands are more reliable then Owens. Oh well what could have been.

That's may take out!

Happy Holiday's all

Subject: Boooo


Author:
Jim Burke
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Date Posted: 13:38:44 12/24/02 Tue

Ya know its funny, when a team is winning and playing well everyone give the glory to the QB,even when sometimes they don't deserve it and when they're losing he gets the blame. I live about 80 miles from Buffalo and hear this same debate about Drew Bledsoe. The Bills media is killing this guy for the last 5 games, When you give up 5 sacks to one guy I think it might be an O-line issue too. Everyone is blaming GARCIA are you kidding me. I've said this from the start I guarentee that I've seen Garcia play more then anyone in this forum. You have two choices here folks. Garcia can throw it downfield (like Bledsoe), force it (like Bledsoe), get sacked (like Bledsoe, or Rob Johnson) and we can miss the playoffs again. Take your pick! My pick is the playoffs. Is Garcia having a good year? Probably not. Is the lack of offense totally his fault. Hell no!

Another thing as of late I've heard alot of people taking about our WR's. Owens is without a doubt the best in the league. Streets is a nice compliment and Wilson looks like a capable guy who can make the odd play. Stokes? that's another story. We need to get rid of this guy, he does nothing positive and plays with no passion whatsoever.

I tried last year to give the 49ers a diamond in the rough WR, who is now playing in KC. If anyone saw the KC, San Diego game you would have seen #85 Marc Boerigter, this guy would have been the perfect compliment to Owens he's big, strong and if you saw the highlights fast, 99 yard TD vs. SD outrunning the saftey. It was beautiful! Former CFLer's rock!

I would even go as far to saw his hands are more reliable then Owens. Oh well what could have been.

That's my take out!

Happy Holiday's all

Subject: Win - good read and observation!


Author:
49ertothecore
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Date Posted: 14:14:30 12/24/02 Tue

Win - thanks that was an excellent read and analysis of what's going on. I hope your right about getting things corrected and finishing with a bang!

Subject: Tim - your a horse of a different color!


Author:
49ertothecore
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Date Posted: 14:22:23 12/24/02 Tue

Tim - I'm not quite sure how you're able to be satisfied and content with the kind of year we've had especially with the global inconsistencies. If the 49ers can do better than they did last year in the playoffs that will make this off season a little brighter. I'm glad you're able to be objective about this season but if things don't improve lets hope the powers that be make the right decisions regarding personnel that will help the 49ers improve. I'm out of here for about a week, Y'all enjoy your holiday season!!

Subject: Eye Candy...


Author:
TANK
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Date Posted: 14:29:44 12/24/02 Tue

I think there is a new generation of football fans out there. They are the ones who learned football from ESPN highlights and Sony Play Station 2. They are easily bored and need visual sensory stimulation. TIM, Peter King, THENINES, Sean, Core and Tim all alluded to this visceral need.

I am old school. If Mariucci wins the Super Bowl with this 49ers team, he is beyond reproach. If he can't get his team past the wild card playoff game, I will be disappointed. If you honestly look at the 49ers talent and compare it to Green Bay, Philadelphia and Tampa Bay, I would say we don't measure up on the lines. I am not inclined to rail on Pat Morris and Dwain Board about their coaching. I think they are doing the best they can do given injuries, lack of attention by the front office, etc.

TIM: I made a point to argue that the 49ers lacked talent at critical positions: nickel back, LDE, #2WR and, for a large part of the season, TE. Just for fun, agree with me that the last two positions, #2WR and TE, are critical to executing the WCO. Now, honestly assess what Mariucci has had to "work with," and compare it to what your favorite WCO coaches have at #2WR, TE and even #3WR. Mariucci is driving an offense with limited steering through an NFL obstacle coarse that has has 20 years to perfect a defense against the WCO.

If the two defensive positions (LDE and #3CB) had been addressed more adequately in the offseason, I think this team would be 13-3, maybe 14-2. The problem is, we all knew of these glaring defensive weaknesses last January and they weren't adequately addressed.

Take Shaun King off my Christmas wish list.

I love Kendrell Bell. Is there anyway we can trade Derek Smith for him?

Tommy Maddox really surprised me.

Peter King makes an excellent point about the FG kicking situation. The 49ers would be 11-5, maybe 12-4 this season with a good, veteran kicker. Too bad the front office ignores that reality.

I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy & Healthy New Year!

Subject: Playoff Tickets


Author:
Julie B.
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Date Posted: 17:03:10 12/24/02 Tue

Playoff tickets go on sale on Saturday!!!!

This link will give you more info!!

http://www.sf49ers.com/newsroom/DisplayNews.asp?newsid=1035

Subject: Eric Crouch


Author:
RICHARD
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Date Posted: 06:38:19 12/25/02 Wed

ERIC CROUCH WANTS BACK IN THE NFL BUT ONLY AS QUARTERBACK. I HIGHLY THINK WE SHUOLD PUT CROUCH IN OUR OFFENSE BECAUSE I DON'T THINK JEFF GARCIA WILL GET THE JOB DONE. DON'T GET ME WRONG BECAUSE GARCIA HAS HEART AND SKILLS WITH RECORD BREAKING STATS BUT THEY ARE ONLY STATS AND STATS DON'T SAY EVERYTHING. THE PRESS JUST DOGGED CROUCH AND SAID HE WAS THE BIGGEST BUST. THE MAN HASN'T PLAYED A GAME YET. CROUCH NEEDS TO BE PLACED IN THE RIGHT SYSTEM THAT WILL FIT HIS WAY OF PLAYING. LIKE THE 49ER'S WEST COAST OFFENSE. FOR EXAMPLE KURT WARNER DIDN'T MAKE IT IN GREENBAY WHEN HE FIRST STARTED HIS CARRER. REASON: WRONG MAN FOR THE GREEBAY SYSTEM. WARNER AIRS THE BALL AND THATS WHY WARNER IS THE RIGHT MAN FOR THE DON COYELL SYSTEM THAT IS BEING USED BY THE RAMS. THAT IS NOT ERIC CROUCH. WHAT IS ERIC CROUCH. THE 49ER WAY. IF ANY OF YOU REALLY WATCH ERIC CROUCH PLAY IN NEBRASKA AND FORGET ABOUT HIS LAST GAME AGAINST MIAMI. YOU WILL SEE A LOT OF STEVE YOUNG WHEN HE WAS YOUNG.

Subject: Hmm...


Author:
TrevortheGreat of Trevor's Corner
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Date Posted: 09:55:27 12/25/02 Wed

Interesting how positions blasted as being global weaknesses in the preseason and even during the season on this board -- Derrick Deese at left tackle and Chike Okeafor at left defensive end -- go strangely unmentioned in conversation nowadays. Deese has had a Pro Bowl season robbed from him by a flawed voting system, and Okeafor has been among team leaders in QB pressures, while still holding his own against the run. I'd be interested in seeing all those naysayers who have blasted Deese over the years give us a retraction, because he has played lights out all year.

I love this quote:

"I DON'T THINK JEFF GARCIA WILL GET THE JOB DONE. DON'T GET ME WRONG BECAUSE GARCIA HAS HEART AND SKILLS WITH RECORD BREAKING STATS BUT THEY ARE ONLY STATS AND STATS DON'T SAY EVERYTHING."

This is an argument for the signing of Eric Crouch. Hey RICHARD, what else do you WANT in a QB, huh? A great car and a winning smile? Rhythm? Music? You try and tell me that fans of the Cardinals, Seahawks, Bears, Lions, Buccaneers, Panthers, Cowboys, Giants, Redskins, Broncos, Chargers, Ravens, Browns, Bengals, or Dolphins wouldn't trade their starting QBs in a heartbeat for Garcia and I'll laugh in your face. There's plenty of other teams that would probably rather have Garcia that I left off the list too, just for argument's sake. God people, let's THINK about what we're saying here, okay? Is that a lot to ask?

TANK: Don't hold your breath on Bell... he's gonna be the future of the Steeler's defense for years to come. ...or until he becomes "washed up" a la Levon Kirkland and Earl Holmes...

Core: I'm inclined to agree with you on one point. Frankly, I'd only be "satisfied" if the 49ers went 16-0 and beat every opponent by 40 points. Of course I also recognize that even if they did that, people on this board would probably start blasting the 49ers' weak backup long snapper and moan about how this glaring weakness would get them killed in the playoffs. Yeah, the 49ers were far from dominant this year. But then again, what NFL team is dominant these days? You can only name me two games this year in which the 49ers really stunk up the joint, against the Broncos and Eagles. Two solid teams that at the times the Niners played them were considered to be the elite of the league. They've lost three other close games. I don't think I can really argue with that. It's not domination, and yes, there's more to it than won-loss record, but for cripe's sake people, doesn't winning still matter?

I have this really big fear that Steve Mariucci is going to be run out of town this year by 49ers management and that his replacement won't be nearly up to his caliber of coach. All because the 49ers didn't peak at the right time and failed to secure homefield advantage and ride it to the Super Bowl. Mariucci and his staff have helped to construct and mold a team that is one of the best and most talented in the NFL, and I think way too many people refuse to see that and be seduced rather by the sentiment that being a "nice guy" is a bad thing in the NFL. I sincerely hope that the man is given more for his hard work and dedication than a pink slip.

Subject: Sean,Tim,TANK


Author:
TIM
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Date Posted: 15:30:34 12/25/02 Wed

Sean: I never said that all the Niners woes could be put at the feet of Mooch,just enough to make a BIG difference in the way the offense is run and in the pleasure I have watching it.I agree that Garcia has not been a very accurate deep passer this season but he IS very good overall and a very good coach would be able to cover over for that failing without taking the gutts out of the west coast system.(Gannon,for example,is not very good at the accurate long throws but that hasn't stopped the Raiders from running one of the most exciting offenses in the league with Gannon at QB).You said,who knows the real answer to the problems? I think Walsh and Donahue have known for quite some time where to put a large part of the blame and if the owner will allow them I think they will address that part of the problem that will be solved by replacing Mooch this off season.If York wants to remain with his head coach then at least I wish he would allow Walsh to bring in someone to put the Walsh back in the Bill Walsh offense.Since I really like Mooch as a person it would satisfy me if he stayed but some of his control over the offense was given over to the man Walsh brought in.

Tim: Sorry if you just can't take what I believe is the well deserved criticism of Mooch any more! If that is the case then why don't YOU find another team to root for? I've been a Niner fan for over 30 years so it's a little too late for me to switch even if I wanted to,WHICH I DON"T (but thanks for the suggestion).All I want is some adjustments to be made to the way MY team is being run.I don't know how old you are but it looks like I may have been a fan long before you were born and long long before Mooch took over.I WOULD take Mooch over what we had before the Bill Walsh era but it's very hard to look at things in that perspective after the great years we have been treated to since Walsh came in especially since Walsh is still around and willing and still able to tune up the engine on that Ferarri he drove into town so many years ago(by hiring a new mechanic that knows all about sports cars instead of staying with the one who's engine work has not met the Walsh standards!).

TANK: I think that Streets is very very good and is a great compliment to Owens.I also like Wilson in the mix and I think that Johnson is a very very good TE.So I guess I can't agree with you that those posistions are weaknesses.I do agree that the Niners(like all teams in the league) lack enough talent at some critical posistions.(nickle back etc.) but most of those posistions will be taken care of by players getting healthy for next season(Winborn,Bronson,Fiore) and young players coming on(Shaw,Curtis,Heitmann,Kosier,Rasheed, Rumph???),free agents and next years draft.But if the "lack of talent"or what I would prefer to call the lack of an adequate coaching philosophy at some of the coaching posistions is not addressed then all these very talented players may continue to be wasted.I hope we win the SB and if we do I know that York will probably reward Mooch with a new contract.I just hope that York also tells him that along with that new contract that Mooch will have to accept a new offensive mind on the coaching staff to bring the offensive game planning and playcalling back up to standards that would make Walsh proud and make fans like me happier.He probably would balk at such a suggestion but if he didn't want to accept it then maybe that would lead him to want a trade to Detroit,who knows.I know Mooch has pretty darned good stats as far as his offenses go over the last 6 years(and his wins vs losses)but I just see so much more potential if someone else was calling the offensive shots.Just my opinion but one that I have held for the last 6 years and one that Mooch has not done much to change(even though he promised last off season that he was going to change it seems to have proven true that the tiger cannot change his stripes even if he tries).

GO NINERS ! ! ! TIM

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