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49ers Paradise Forum

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Welcome to the best place on the net to talk 49ers football! The 49ers Paradise Forum offers a unique experience to users - allowing conversations about football, and the 49ers without the name calling and insults that have populated most of the forums out there. I'd like to invite everyone to add their thoughts to the forum. All you need is a valid e-mail address.

Please enjoy the short articles posted below, they should help spark some interesting conversations.

What A Game
The 49ers played a crazy game this past Sunday and it may take all week before us fans can really let the adrenaline slip. But in the mean time it makes for great conversation. This week we’ll be talking about the greatest comeback in 49ers playoffs history, and of course we’ll be looking forward to the big showdown against the Bucs. Come on by the 49ers Paradise Forum and have your say!

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Subject: Thenines


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 15:35:48 12/25/02 Wed
thenines: Yes,Gruden had to answer those type of questions about if he would return to the Raiders and he was a division winning coach.I hope our situation works out as well for Mooch and for the Niners this year as it did for Gruden and the Raiders last year. TIM
Subject: Trev


Author:
2winspapa
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:47:25 12/25/02 Wed
OK, Deese has played his guts out all season long and Okeafor looks good most of the time, but we need to get bigger, stronger, and YOUNGER at both the OLINE and DLINE...nuff said about that.

Now about your quote:

"I DON'T THINK JEFF GARCIA WILL GET THE JOB DONE. DON'T GET ME WRONG BECAUSE GARCIA HAS HEART AND SKILLS WITH RECORD BREAKING STATS BUT THEY ARE ONLY STATS AND STATS DON'T SAY EVERYTHING."

I happen to agree with that statement, heck I may have posted it, and while at times Garcia looks incredible, it's those intangibles that he seems to be missing...

He seems to hear the sack coming (when there isn't one...just yet)and ditches the pocket much too quickly, much too often.

He's hasn't been as accurate this season...why?

His reads and progressions are, and I apologize for the lack of a better term; "mickey-mousish" I can see what he's reading and doing so I'm certain so are the defenses. He needs to go for it and stretch the coverages, and I don't necessarily just mean long either....improvisation is a good thing. Being on the same page as your RB's, TE's, and WR's is a good thing. Reading the defenses and making adjustments is a good thing. I just don't see it with this QB. YES he doesn't usually make mistakes, or take risks, but it's the playoffs now, it's not time to dump the ball into the turf or not go for the yards on his own at this point. He needs to LEAD this team and do what it takes to win!

I also agree with some of the other posts that we need "Something" to jump start our offense. It's frustrating to watch the raiders, et. al. playing the WCO, and looking really good, while we couln't inspire a reaction from the pee wees.

That being said, I agree that many teams may covet Garcia...to a degree. You just can't help wanting a Vick, or Pennington though. Someone who has the same skills + the arm, and isn't quite so jumpy in the pocket!

Anyway, happy holidays folks!
Subject: Trevor & Richard


Author:
2winspapa
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:16:14 12/25/02 Wed
My apologies to you both. looks like Richard posted that exact quote I borrowed from Trev, but I believe I've posted something similar in the past. Anyways, my bad.
Subject: TIM


Author:
Tim
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 00:25:34 12/26/02 Thu
Oh, so now it's YOUR team. Gee. sorry. My mistake, I didn't realize the Yorks had sold it to you.
Subject: TIM not Tim


Author:
Sean
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 04:15:23 12/26/02 Thu
Sorry if I riled you up.

TANKS reference to the weakness at TE was for a "large part of the season" (as you know Johnson was hurt and playing hurt for a large part of the season). I don't think he was slamming Eric Johnson.

In response to your comments:

1) Do you feel the OL gives good protection?

2)If we had a less mobile qb in there do you think the number of sacks allowed would be similar to this season?

3) Forget the long bombs, now do you feel Garcia has been accurate in the medium range passes this year?

4) Do you feel those medium range passes have been thrown with confidence and authority?

5) How do you know that Walsh and Donahue are displeased with Mooch?

From reading your posts, I still feel you think we have some of the top talent in the league (both sides of the ball), and have the depth to offset injuries among key personnel, along with a suitable qb to go for a wide open style of WCO, and the only thing holding it back is the coach (MOOCH). Thus there the blame lies.

It might be a surprise to you, but I think most posters (if not all) would love to have the 9ers play the style of football you refer to. They may not have as much confidence in the overall talent though as you, and feel the injuries have hurt us more than you think, and may feel Garcia is not the best qb to play successfully the type of football you want to see. Thus believe Mooch is forced to call the type of game you despise so much, or possibly because of Garcia's lack of confidence, he himself in fact might be dictating the more conservative nature of the game, by not attempting those types of passes, which have been called, and opts for the 5 yd passes.

Or it could be a combination of all of the above.

My biggest bitch with Mooch is his loyalty to the other coaches, especially Mora. Mora shows glimpses of a good DC, but I think he complicates things too much, which is not good when a team lacks experience and is riddled with injuries(which is just part of the game). I have to admit that I am pretty nervous, outside of a couple games, everytime the opposing offense touches the ball, and thus I want the 9ers to hold on to the ball as long as possible. I don't want conservative football, but I feel more comortable right now when we play that way because at the end of the game, I want to be cheering for the winning side. It is extremely frustrating when we lose those sort of games, but it is also frustrating when we lose games that we play wide open.

I think everyone will agree that Mooch approaches a game maximizing his chances to win (at least what he feels is our best chance to win). He will take an ugly win over a wide open loss. His record shows that he is pretty good at this. That does not mean that Mooch is conservative at offense though. He accepts what he believes is the reality of the situation and then tries to win within those parameters. You feel that Mooch makes those parameters too narrow, based upon the talent on the field, or he just likes the narrow parameters thus making him conservative by nature.

Am I way off on that?
Subject: Fantasy League


Author:
Mithril49
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 14:48:28 12/26/02 Thu
Well, the 49ers Paradise Fantasy League has come to an end...and a champion has been declared.

Would the league owner care to write a bit about it? :)
Subject: The season so far


Author:
Niner Bob
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:06:07 12/26/02 Thu
Hey Niner fans, I've been away far too long. Like most of us I feel a lot of disappointment with this years record. Two games leap out in my view. The Saints and the Chargers. Turn those two into wins and we are looking at 12-4 at worst, 13-3 more likely with a win over the hapless "same old rams". There are a lot of things to gripe about. The thing I see a lot with this team is a real lack of rythmn by the offense. We should be rollin up the points and we're not. It's a big day when we score 20 now. The other huge factor is injuries to key personnel. Bronson and Winborn are the biggest. Rumph is getting toasted like all rookies do. I'll admit I am a little concerned about him. Maybe his future is at safety. When Owens spoke of the lack of killer instinct, he really hit the nail on the head. Remember the game against KC? We nearly gave that game away. How about kicking. UGHH!!! Traditionally the team has always placed an adequate kicker at best in this position. That rationale was based on the fact that the team always scored lots of TDs and didn't need the field goal as much. Very flawed approach in my opinion. Kickoffs are embarassing. Special teams lost their best man when Terry Jackson got hurt. On the positive side, run game is solid with G-man and Barlow. TO is the best in the game. We need a compliment to him. Perhaps Peerless Price? Wave goodbye to J.J. Or do you go DB and grab Chris McAlister? I see a lot of teams not just us, play zone defense. I hate it!!!!!!!!! Play man!!! if you get burned oh well. I think we have a shot in the playoffs IF we can crank up the offense. Otherwise I see one win and out. Looking ahead to the draft needs are LDE, CB, K, WR, OL, LB. I don't know how they will address those needs. On Mooch. I like the guy. I think offensively he is too conservative though. Should he be fired. No. And who would you replace him with? Holmgren? Parcells? A college guy? As Niner fans we expect a lot. But shouldn't every fan of every team expect a lot? I think the team is going in the right direction. Remember where we were two years ago? Maybe Bronson and possibly Winborn returning we help the D become dominant again. And please open up the offense. Go Niners. Good to talk to all of you again. Happy Holidays and as always thanks to Bryan!!!!
Subject: Monday Night


Author:
Jim Burke
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:40:31 12/26/02 Thu
Well we have a shot at moving up in the playoff rankings. If the Bucs lose on Sunday what do you guys do? Do you go for the win and try and move up in the rankings or do you just rest guys and let the chips fall where they may? If the Bucs win it becomes a no brainer.

Niner Bob- Funny you should want Peerless Price I was calling for him when he came out of college, living about 80 miles from Buffalo I can tell you at the mid way point of the season it was a lock that he was not going to be back in Buffalo. But now there its about 70-30 he will return, besides I don't think we could afford him after the year he has had.

Tank- I agree that the TE position is a little weak, I like Johnson I just don't see him making the big play down the middle like Brent Jones did. I'd love to get a "Big Time" TE. Let Swift go. How bout Kellen Winslow from the Miami Hurricanes? that's the kind of TE I'd love.

As for the kicking game for now and through most of next season I'm going to stay on Chandler's side in recent history we have let some solid young kickers go (Longwell, Wilkens etc.) and would like to see Chandler turn into a guy like that. I won't hold my breath though.

Out!
Subject: Just enough offense won't do in the playoffs


Author:
Sydney From Syd's Corner.
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 21:17:18 12/26/02 Thu
In a mild and cloudy day in Sun Devil Stadium the San Francisco 49ers again squeaked a close victory over the Arizona Cardinals 17-14 without their offensive playmaker in Terrell Owens. Imagine if you would at just how Arizona once a team bringing up the rear for first place in the division could succumb to an opposing offense that struggles in the red zone. Every 49er fan alive out there knows that a fear exists in the back of their mind as to San Francisco’s ability to put multiple points on the scoreboard.
The 49ers have more than just struggled to get into the end zone, they have allowed many teams to manufacture incredible comebacks because they are unable to manufacture and add points to an already existing lead. The concern is ringing loud and clear in Steve Mariucci’s ear as he tries to find the symptoms to the uncontrolled bleeding of the offense and to find ways to score more points on the scoreboard.
Please see more in Syd's Corner! Thanks for your support and Happy New Year!
Sydney
Subject: Time to go Ram hunting.


Author:
Sydney From Syd's Corner.
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 10:58:04 12/28/02 Sat
How sweet it would be to defeat the St. Louis Rams right in their own backyard and sweep them for the season. In a Monday Night Game that is to be the last of the season there is very little fanfare because this game has no real ramifications for the post-season except for the San Francisco 49ers in winning and Tampa Bay losing.
Should both happen San Francisco moves from fourth seed in the National Football Conference to third seed. The differences are minimal and the entire subplot to this game should be to win but also rest the players that need to be rested. I am all for making sure certain players get the time off needed to heal injuries that could have a negative effect on the post-season for us. Should it cost us the victory we can look back still and realize that resting and healing vital players was the greater victory come wild card weekend.
But we can defeat St. Louis even with key players absent as indicated in Arizona, however St Louis is a different kind of opponent with better quality personnel. We will have a tougher time getting by them as they play well at home and excel on artificial turf, giving them a distinct advantage with receivers that are lethal at the point of attack.
The offensive line has been really banged up and will need serious consideration for rest and healing, some of their struggles have been from a direct result of their hurting. As Ron Stone, Derrick Deese and Matt Willig all have injured ankles that only can become worse playing on artificial turf. Jeremy Newberry continues to play with broken fingers and Scott Gragg has a bruised calf that will become more irritated on this turf.
Two players that are being looked at as possible entries into the playoffs are Jamie Winborn and Zack Bronson both will lend the improving defense even more teeth to bite with. Undoubtedly Jeff Garcia could see some resting time this coming Monday as to give Tim Rattay some valuable playing time as well.
Getting our personnel healthy again needs to be apriority as you can see, what complicates the picture even more is the loss of practice time with a Monday Night contest. It shortens the week to prepare for the wild card game by 36 hours. This in hindsight provides the wild card team a good advantage in coming in refreshed and healthier overall to play.
Rather the Rams start Marc Bulger or Jamie Martin makes no difference our secondary will have to be on their best game with the lightening speed of Issac Bruce and Tory Holt in the mixture. Our run defense will have to contend with the likes of Marshall Faulk who is on pace to break 1,000-yards. Trung Candidate will also likely see increased playing time as the Rams try and evaluate what they have beyond Faulk for next season.
The 49er pass rush will have to make a concerted effort to get to Bulger or Martin, as there lies the key to shutting down the big play. Expect the Rams to go after Mike Rumph hot and often in order to make the big plays happen with regularity, he will have to be ready for these encounters with the high flying passing Rams.
The San Francisco defense has been a rock the last few games and will need to continue that trend right into the playoffs. Tony Parrish is the undisputed leader in the secondary as is Andre Carter on the end. Both of these players will need to be key players in making a victory happen. What is not said is the fact that both Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young have provided opportunities for not just the ends to capitalize but the linebackers as well.
Jeff Garcia will be looked at as to how much playing time he gets in this game as to evaluate his physical and mental readiness for the post-season. Rest probably will be prescribed once the 49ers gain a lead or come the second half. St. Louis is dealing with some significant injuries themselves as this game approaches so the edge will be a little more blunted as we enter this game. As I mentioned before in my last article the key to advancing in the playoffs will be the readiness and improvement of the offense.
Struggling in the end zone by not scoring touchdowns and settling for field goals needs to come to an end, improving our third down efficiency is also vital for us to succeed. Having viable threats in the passing game opposite Terrell Owens will also be critical as Tai Streets and J.J. Stokes continue to do battle. What was interesting in last week’s contest was the emergence of Cedric Wilson as a legitimate and dangerous threat. I was impressed with his agility and ability to get separation from his covering defensive back.
I believe he has a real future here in San Francisco and that he needs serious consideration for providing competition for receivers like J.J. Stokes for the third slot position. In fact Wilson could spell Stokes departure come the off-season as the 49ers evaluate their receivers.
We need to go in and win this game, but we also need to think wisely and put our team at a crossroads for rest and healing also. It will be critical to rest the right personnel considering the shortness of the week afterwards in losing 36 valuable hours. Steve Mariucci will have tough decisions ahead of him as this game unfolds, but I trust he will make the right choices.
Subject: TIM, We Just Disagree...


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:49:09 12/28/02 Sat
TIM argues that "a very good coach would be able to cover over for that failing (Garcia's inadequacy as a deep passer) without taking the guts out of the west coast system." The problem is, he uses Rich Gannon as an example of someone with a questionable arm benefitting from great coaching (Marc Trestman???) to produce the most exciting offense in the league. I would argue that Gannon is benefitting from having two unanimous, Hall of Fame wide receivers (Jerry Rice and Tim Brown), two or three tight ends that would start for the 49ers (Roland Williams, Jeremy Brigham and 2nd round pick Doug Jolley), plus possibly the best (and largest) offensive line in the NFL.

Al Davis is no fool. He invests heavily in his offensive line, which is built around 1st round draft picks, All Pros and even a free agent that Terry Donahue covetted (Frank Middleton). Even Bill Walsh's offenses benefitted from early draft picks, like Keith Fahnhorst (2nd), Harris Barton (1st), Bubba Parris (2nd, 29th overall), Randy Cross (2nd), and Guy McIntyre (3rd).

Bill Walsh also valued tight ends. So he signed Russ Francis AND Charlie Young, drafted Ken McAfee (1st) AND John Frank (2nd) and developed local, small school (SCU) star Brent Jones. Walsh's offenses were always two or three deep at tight end. TIM considers Eric Johnson "very, very good," but could he beat out Francis, Young, Frank or Jones? NO! Johnson would have been a third string TE during the bulk of Walsh's years.

Defenses around the league have spent the better part of 20 years trying to shut down the WCO. The most effective scheme is the two deep zone. This requires a tight end to get deep and split the safeties, who are cheating towards the receivers (i.e., double coverage on Terrell Owens deep). Has Johnson proven effective deep over the middle? NO!

When the offense struggled mid-season, is it any coincidence that Johnson was out with a back injury? To illustrate the drop off at the TE position, just note that Swift was a virtual nothing when Johnson was out. Then, upon his return, Johnson had 16 receptions in two games. That illustrates how important the TE is to the WCO; perhaps the "guts" that TIM refers to in an earlier post.

Note: When Gruden got to Tampa Bay, the first thing he did was sign Ken Dilger and Keenan McCardell to line up opposite Keyshawn Johnson; Shanahan resigned Shanahan Sharpe and drafted Ashley Lelie (1st) to compliment Rod Smith and McCaffrey; Green Bay/Mike Sherman drafted Bubba Franks (1st), drafted Javon Walker (1st) and signed Terry Glenn; Holmgren drafted Jeremy Steven (1st) to compliment Koren Robinson and Darrell Jackson; Belichick drafted Daniel Graham (1st), Deion Branch (2nd) and signed Donald Hayes to compliment Troy Brown and David Patten. Mariucci has a nice 7th round surprise.

Speaking of Shanahan, TIM must wonder, why couldn't a very good coach like Mike Shanahan "be able to cover over for the loss of McCaffrey last year without taking the guts out of the west coast offense?" Or, why couldn't Mike Holmgren be able to cover for the failings of Jon Kitna, Trent Dilfer, Matt Hasselbeck and Ryan Leaf without taking the guts out of the WCO the last four years in Seattle?

It is obvious that quality of personnel plays a huge roll in play calling and execution. Garcia has been misfiring deep all season, but particularly the past month, so maybe Eric Johnson cannot be blamed for not getting deep like Jones. Lets face it, Jones benefitted from Montana and Young. But, it also shows how ridiculous it is to compare this offense with previous incarnations of Bill Walsh's offense. Aside from Terrell Owens, Fred Beasley, Jeremy Newberry and Ron Stone, I don't think the other starters measure up to what Walsh had in his arsenal. Even the Hearst/Barlow attack isn't as explosive as Roger Craig or Wendell Tyler. Hearst is clearly slowing and Barlow is inconsistant (I think Barlow could be a star next year, but then again, I thought he would be a bigger star this year).

TIM says Tai Streets is "very, very good and a great compliment to Terrell Owens." Your standards are frightfully low. I like Streets footwork along the sideline, and he is a nice possession receiver (lots of first downs), but all one has to do is look at his yards after the catch to see that he isn't a "John Taylor-like" threat, nor does he fight for extra yards like Dwight Clark. Defensive coordinators don't lay awake with worry wondering how to account for him, hoping he doesn't break one for a TD. Taylor averaged 16.1 yards per reception for his career - over a five year period (1989-1993) Taylor averaged 7 TD's and 17.1 yards. How many TD's does Streets have to compliment Owens? YPC? YAC? Streets goes down within three yards of every pass he catches (I hope he makes me eat my words over the next three or four weeks).

If you want to "put the Walsh back in the Bill Walsh offense," maybe you should start with a Bill Walsh offensive line, a Bill Walsh quarterback, two Bill Walsh receivers and a Bill Walsh TE who can catch deep. If you don't have these elements, just look to the Bill Walsh offense at Stanford in the early 1990's to see how effective it is with inferior parts.
Subject: MVP list


Author:
RageFX
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:31:28 12/28/02 Sat
Did anyone catch NFL.com writer Pat Kirwin's top 10 MVP list for this season. Garcia came in at 6 and he made some good positive points about his season and the Niners in general.

One question though what about TO , I know usally either a QB or a RB take MVP but come on. Just my two cents
Subject: MVP list


Author:
RageFX
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:35:03 12/28/02 Sat
Did anyone catch NFL.com writer Pat Kirwin's top 10 MVP list for this season. Garcia came in at 6 and he made some good positive points about his season and the Niners in general. He also called our O-Line "makeshift" good call Pat

One question though what about TO , I know usally either a QB or a RB take MVP but come on. Just my two cents
Subject: Rage FX


Author:
Teller
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 19:10:58 12/28/02 Sat
I think Garcia/49ers would lose 10-12 games without Owens, but TO would still have 90-100 receptions with Rattay, and the 49ers would be 8-8. That pretty much sums up my MVP analysis. This is Terrell's offense, not Garcia's.

I think the Mariucci stuff needs to be put to rest. TANK, you are arguing with a guy who thinks winning a Super Bowl isn't enough to prove Mariucci can coach. TIM, you are arguing with a guy convinced that Mariucci's offense is handicapped by lesser talent and injuries. I think the Niners win either way...if Mariucci is grabbed by another team (Detroit fired Vince Tobin yesterday, which suggests Matt Millen is safe for another year), then the 49ers get a much needed infusion of top, young talent via compensation; and, if Mariucci returns with an extension, then Donahue and Walsh will have concluded that there simply isn't anyone better for this team.

As I understand it, Paul Allen is appreciating the late season turn-around in Seattle, so Holmgren is safe as long as Hasselbeck continues to improve. If you haven't noticed, he is playing better than Jeff Garcia these past 5-6 weeks.

My big concern is the 49ers Red Zone offense. This unti has fallen apart in recent weeks. Tai Streets isn't an end zone presence. He has only 3 TD's all season. With Owens out last week, he couldn't muster anything. For all the love given Eric Johnson, he hasn't caught a TD all season, so his Red Zone effectiveness must be questioned. Lets face it, if it isn't Owens, it has to go to Garcia or one of our backs on the short field. They are the only go-to-guys.

The reason the Red Zone offense is important is because the field goal kicking sucks.
Subject: Draft


Author:
Bob
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:10:57 12/28/02 Sat
When does this kid named Suggs declare for the draft.

He has great pass rushing ability.Would we be in a position to draft a talent like that?

Any chance we could use JJ Stokes as draft bait?
Subject: 'Walsh'


Author:
Julie B.
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:44:12 12/28/02 Sat
TANK - If my memory serves me correctly..... Walsh was the man who wanted Garcia on the team and was the one who picked Johnson in the draft. So part of your request has already been dealt with!! ;)
Subject: Please Clarify Julie B.


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 22:54:37 12/28/02 Sat
Julie B., correct me if I am wrong, but Walsh signed Garcia to be Steve Young's BACKUP. Walsh never said Garcia was his QBOTF, but he did say that Garcia was "maxed out." Jeff Garcia is no more a "Bill Walsh quarterback," than Steve Bono, or Elvis Grbac, or Steve Stenstrom. The "Bill Walsh offense" that TIM harkens for is the one he remembers Joe Montana and Steve Young guiding.

As for Eric Johnson, I said he was a pleasant surprise, but until he gets deep, ala Brent Jones, and stays healthy, and scores a touchdown, then Johnson is merely a Walsh draft pick, and Mariucci still lacks a "Walsh tight end."

Clever response, though.
Subject: tight ends


Author:
Domingo
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 03:53:42 12/29/02 Sun
I like this tight end talk.

Another tight end that Walsh drafted was Wesley Walls.

How in the heck did HE get away from us?

I have been thinking that a nice sleeper first round pick for us would be Teyo Johnson. I know that he might take some time to develop and I have stated that I want our early picks to have an imeadiate impact but Johnson is a huge talent that I could see as eventually having a Shannon Sharp type of effect on our team.

Kind of one-third tight end, one-third slot reciever, one-third pure wide-out that drives oponents crazy.

He is not the speed burner that most envision but he would eventually make us a more explosive offense and he would take some heat off of T.O.

Along with a pure cover corner I think that an offensive playmaker is the 49ers biggest off-season need.

I did not wish everyone a Merry Christmas, so I will wish everyone a Happy New Year instead.

Happy New Year and go 49ers!
Subject: TANK


Author:
Sean
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 07:50:15 12/29/02 Sun
Question for you regarding Tai Streets.

I kind of agree with what you say regarding Tai Streets and YAC. If Garcia threw some longer passes (for completions) and was therefore able to spread the field more do you feel Tai Streets could develop into a better receiver getting more yards after the catch?

I felt that in many games this year the receivers and the TE were getting nailed immediately after contact with the ball. That has got to hurt ones confidence. It seemed that that was more to do with Defense's creaping up, and not paying enough attention to the long pass, rather than bad routes being run. It was like the Defense was DARING Garcia to throw the long ball. Not sure about the second half of the season as I only got to see a couple games.
Subject: Sean & Domingo


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:00:44 12/29/02 Sun
Domingo: Thanks for reminding me about Wesley Walls. Walls was a second round pick by Walsh in 1989, his last draft. Think about it. Walsh already had Brent Jones, who would be a third year veteran in 1989, but he still invested a second round pick in Walls AND acquired Jamie Williams, because that is how important the tight end position is to his WCO. Does that put a better perspective on the caliber of Mariucci's weapons? Imagine, when Eric Johnson was injured and he only had Justin Swift (9 rec., 57 yards, 6.3 avg., 11 long).

Just curious, on a team with Brent Jones, Wesley Walls and Jamie Williams (aka, Spiderman), do you think Eric Johnson and his limited blocking abilities would even make the team?

Sean: You ask an excellent question about Streets, and the need for Garcia to complete more long passes. I do think the lack of a deep passing game allows the defenses to crowd the first 15 yards. DB's and Defensive Coordinators just dare the Garcia to throw deep. When Garcia goes deep, it seems to work with Owens but fails with Streets, Stokes and Johnson. Go figure...

Streets catches a lot of slants, but he hasn't advanced ONE for meaningful yardage, say like John Taylor.

Streets has a nice 67 catch season. He would probably be closer to 80 if we hadn't wasted the first part of the season with JJ Stokes. Eighty receptions is an excellent season...Dwight Clark only did that twice. So, why do I consider Streets inferior to other WCO #2WR, whether former Niners or elsewhere in the NFL? It is his yards per catch (10.5) and touchdowns (3) that reflect his lack of impact. He isn't a threat (JJ Stokes career averages are better than this). He doesn't relieve any of the pressure on Terrell Owens.

Streets isn't the Brooks opposite Freeman (Green Bay '97).
He isn't the Carter or Reed, opposite Moss (Minnesota '98).
He isn't the McCaffrey opposite Rod Smith (Denver '00).
He isn't the McCardell opposite Keyshawn (Tampa Bay '02).
He isn't the Brown opposite Rice (Oakland '02).

I went back and checked the "Walsh offense" of the early to mid 1980's: Clark was the leading receiver, in terms of number of receptions and TD's, but Freddie Solomon averaged 17.3 yards per reception and 6.6 TD's between 1980 and the arrival of Rice in 1985. John Taylor averaged 16 yards and 6.5 TD's opposite Rice, between 1989 and the JJ Stokes draft.

I can hear TIM's gears grinding...he will blame Mariucci's conservative game plan and play calling for the drop off. BUT, in 1997, with Jerry Rice out for the year, and minus Steve Young for several weeks, Mariucci's offense managed to allow Owens to average 15.6 yards and record 8 TD's, while Stokes averaged 12.6 yards and hauled in 4 TD's and Brent Jones averaged 13.2 with 2 TD's (Kirby had 8 TD's, Floyd and Hearst each had 4). So maybe Garcia has been the influence that has lowered the averages.

As for the big hits, I don't break down film, or tape games, but if you just watch the replays that are offered on FOX when they isolate the receiver coming across the field, I have noticed that the receivers get seperation, float in space for a good amount of time, and then Garcia finally throws as the receiver closes in on the defender on the opposite side of the seam...the big hit is a product of Garcia's late delivery. Garcia needs to release the ball a full second earlier.

Teyo Johnson, Stanford. The Great Blue North Draft Report ranks Johnson #72 on its Top Prospects for 2003. The Huddle Report lists Johnson at #59. If this is any indication, I don't think Johnson is worth a first round pick.

Domingo: I agree that the biggest needs are a playmaker receiver and cover corner, but another big, impact defensive lineman that can disrupt the pocket is also urgently needed to help on third down passing situations.
Subject: Who Would You Rather Play?


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:52:12 12/29/02 Sun
If the 49ers lose Monday night, we play the NY Giants in San Francisco. There is a slight chance that we play the Falcons. Who would you rather play? I kind of like Ron Stone and Scott Gragg versus their old team (and I would love to see Julian Peterson locked up on Jeremy Shockey), but I am not afraid of Atlanta.

I wouldn't mind going to Lambeau and beating the Green Bay Packers, either. I think I saw enough in the game earlier this season to suggest that we can beat them. The Packers defense is much easier to attack than the Eagles. Favre is the only challenge. I think the return of Bronson and Winborn changes the complexion of this matchup.

I really like Chad Pennington. Check out his presence in the pocket. I like his timing, too. His receivers aren't set up for crushing hits.

It was great to read that Winborn and Bronson were practicing this week. Neither will play, but this will be a good week to watch Josh Shaw emerge. John Engelberger...calling John Engelberger...are you in the room?
Subject: Wildcard game


Author:
Cory
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 18:52:05 12/29/02 Sun
The 49ers will more than likely play the Giants and I would rather see them than the Falcons. The Giants have played very well at the end of the season, but they don't scare me as much as the Falcons and Michael Vick. The 49ers should be able to win a hard fought game over the Giants and head for a matchup with the Eagles or the Packers.

Like TANK said, I think the 49ers can beat the Packers. They had the lead late in last years playoff game and they only lost 20-14 this year without Ahmed Plummer, Zach Bronson, and Jaime Winborn.

I also like the 49ers chances against the Eagles. Donovan McNabb could be rusty and I think the 49ers 14-0 win last year is more indicitive of how S.F. matches up with them than this years loss.
Subject: Surprising Contract


Author:
greg
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 19:17:52 12/29/02 Sun
How many of you knew this:

"This year, counting the $1.95 million in incentives from last season that will count this year, Garcia will earn $13.5 million -- the only quarterback who makes more is Philadelphia's Donovan McNabb.

Garcia will pocket another $250,000 if the 49ers win their playoff game next Sunday, and he could collect a total of $1.1 million if the 49ers win the Super Bowl."

Courtesy of the SF Chronicle, Sunday, December 29, 2002.

I think Garcia ranks 7th or 8th on my QB list, so that is way too much for a guy who hasn't won a playoff game. Time to put up Jeff. No more blaming the line, or the coach.

Jake Plummer in Chicago or Denver makes the most sense, so what do you guys think of bringing Brian Griese here?
Subject: 49ers Offseason needs


Author:
Cory
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:02:31 12/29/02 Sun
I've noticed that some of you would like to see certain positions upgraded in the offeseason. The 49ers are right now slotted to pick 28th in the draft and here are some players that might be around for the 49ers and TE, CB, WR, and DE according to the Great Blue North Report.

Defensive End

Cory Redding - Texas - (6-5 265)
Antonio Garay - Boston College - (6-4 285)

Wide Receiver

Bryant Johnson - Penn State - (6-2 210)
Terence Edwards - Georgia - (6-2 180)
Taylor Jacobs - Florida - (6-0 190)

Cornerback

Eugene Wilson - Illinois - (6-0 185)
Rod Babers - Texas - (5-10 185)
Marcus Trufant - Washington State - (5-11 185)

Tight End

Trent Smith - Oklahoma - (6-5 235)
Benny Joppru - Michigan - (6-5 245)
Teyo Johnson - Stanford - (6-7 245)
Subject: some thoughts


Author:
RageFX
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:26:32 12/29/02 Sun
Man how about Chad Pennington 4 TDs and a 134.7 QB rating in an make or break game against Green Bay. I still think he would have looked great in a Niner uniform, Pederson was a good pick but I don't know the way that kid is playing.
I'm a Garcia supporter but you can't help and wonder what if we had listened to Walsh and picked him.

Brian Griese as a Niner QB never and I hope it never will happen. I have never been a fan of Griese and after this season I am justified. He has his moments but overall nothing he does impresses me and he definatly is not a good QB to be running our system. The biggest knock that people have about Griese (and thier are alot of them) is that he is not a leader at all. For Our system and for a suscessful QB in general you have to be a Good leader and he is not, Infact he has been described as an Outcast at times and that is not the way the Leader of the team needs to be.
I would take Garcia anyday of the week over Griese and I think that most of the teams in the NFL would agree.
Subject: my vote


Author:
2winspapa
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 03:04:44 12/30/02 Mon
I take Garcia over Griese any day and Pennington over them both. I died, when they didn't go with Chad, yet understood their reasoning in taking Petersen.

I'd like for the niners to sweep the rams this season and close the regular season on a positive note.

Happy new year all!
Subject: TANK


Author:
Sean
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 03:21:56 12/30/02 Mon
Thanks for your in-depth response. As a footnote also remember that the 1997 season you refered to when Rice got hurt. Mooch openly adimitted that he was very careful that season regarding the passing game out of concern for Steve Young. They said one more concussion and his career was over, which in the end was correct. If he did not have Young's career to be concerned with, those figures could have been even more impressive.
Subject: Pennington Playoffs


Author:
Jim Burke
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 17:01:25 12/30/02 Mon
Ya Pennington looked really good that last couple of weeks but have you also noticed the help he has got from Curtis Martin and that O-line. I think we are giving him way too much credit. That was a great throw he made to Santana Moss, Moss did it himself. Oh another tough throw to Crebet on his second TD. I'll take Garcia anyday, the diffence here is the rest of the team not the QB, besides we would have ruined Pennington's career cause he would have started as a rookie and would have turned out to be Rick Mirer or Ryan Leaf. Penninton is in the right system!

I love the match up with the G-Men especially if Winborn and Bronson are back. I think the key will be running the ball and spreading the field, Johnson and Streets must make early plays to free up Owens. And as always it come down to who makes the fewest mistakes in the playoffs I like our chances.

How come we never get Favre on an off day like he had vs. the Jets?


Out
Subject: Wasnt anyone watching?


Author:
Joe
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 03:09:17 12/31/02 Tue
Where's all the irrate fans? Maybe everyone is so stunned they can't take it yet. Any way you shake it it was a tough loss. It looked so good - felt so good - the adrenaline was starting to flow for the playoffs and then CRASH! They lost an onside kick , then a give away by Hurst for a T.D.Follwed by anotherfumble. We were crusing on easy street and got derailed! Rattay looked o.K. but a little imobile for my taste. Has a nice touch pass but needs to develope some intangibles.An ecscaped sack and completion is a heart breaker for a pursuing lineman.I don't doubt we could have won by keeping starters in the whole game but we still had it won and somehow got comfortable with the lead and I think they wanted to see Rattay more in the passing game. That worked great in the first half because we had established the run. Why did we quit?
We get all the starters including Bronson and possibly Winborn to go with T.O.,Jeff Barlow ,Sreets, johnson,Carter,Stubby, BY,Parrish,Plummer. Mooch will have them ready! But can he coach them to the big win? I'll say niners win 24-13!! Go niners!!!
Subject: Bummer-Joe


Author:
2winspapa
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 03:17:45 12/31/02 Tue
Yeah I was hoping for a momentum booster for the playoffs...they looked really good in the first half, even Rattay showed why he's the #2 QB, but this slacking off in the second half and getting careless??!@#

I got sick, and had to switch the channel.....

Hopefull some of the other forum members saw something we didn't!

GO NINERS!!
Subject: *$%#%%#%


Author:
Jim Burke
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 10:46:02 12/31/02 Tue
Typical of the 49er season!

You wanna talk about coaching. There it is.

I swear the fix is in on the NFL too many bad calls and too many teams winning that have no business in being close.

This team has absolutley no pride! It kills me to say that but, that's how it appears to me.

At this point I could care less.

Out
Subject: Fourth quarter nightmare.


Author:
Sydney From Syd's Corner.
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 10:50:06 12/31/02 Tue
What a difference a half makes, in a game that has no ramifications should we win or lose the St. Louis Rams received a gift from the San Francisco 49ers in being allowed to explode in the fourth quarter and show that they still reign dominance over us. Even though we had other priorities in resting the starting lineup and getting healthy for wild card weekend we had this game wrapped up and dropped it like a rock tossed over a lake.
The convincing first half had me jumping up and down as I watched the dominant first drive orchestrated by Jeff Garcia at his best, the offensive line was incredible in man-handling the St. Louis defense all the way down the field. Even after coming off short with three points from this drive didn’t bother me as I knew that with such ball control we would return for seven.
And we did under back-up quarterback Tim Rattay who played very well in the first half and directed two touchdowns drives that put us up 17-0 at halftime. We looked invincible as we dominated every aspect of the game throughout the first half as Rattay and Tai Streets established a connection for two impressive scores. It had me excited to see that this connection was producing in the mold of Garcia to Owens, and it totally impressed me that Streets once again defined himself as the only receiver capable of playing beside Terrell Owens.
The second half came and it was like a light switch went off, Mike Martz was not about to lie down and take this deficit lightly, and with Jamie Martin at quarterback he accomplished everything he wanted to. St. Louis kicker Jeff Wilkins started the scoring onslaught in the third quarter after an impressive St. Louis drive by Martin they were on the board with three points.
The San Francisco defense played very well as they continued their trend of being a contributor in every game with two interceptions one by Ronnie Heard and the other by Tony Parrish. They also registered three sacks in this game and played very aggressive, the only notch that they couldn’t overcome was the mistakes made by the San Francisco offense in the second half and the passing attack in Jamie Martin.
It was very disheartening to see the St. Louis offense right from the start in the fourth quarter march down the field and go on a scoring frenzy with a touchdown pass to tight end Manumaleuna. And then an equaling impressive drive down the field by Martin with a touchdown passes to Issac Bruce.
After that the turning point was sounded as Garrison Hearst was stripped of the ball at the 49er 19-yard line and returned for a touchdown and then if that wasn’t enough Hearst fumbled the ball and caused another touchdown by Martin to tight end Conwell as the grand finale.
What was a surprise to me afterwards was the time at 1:53 why the 49ers chose to run the ball and run out the clock versus throwing the ball down the field in an attempt to score. We had virtually nothing to lose at this point and could have by all accounts manufactured a touchdown and then an on-side kick. The possibility was there even though it was far fetched but there nonetheless. It seemed Mariucci was content in taking the loss and packing up and going home with minimal injuries to start the post-season against the New York Giants.
Do I agree that we should’ve lain down with almost two minutes left? Absolutely not as I believe that a scoring opportunity existed and we should have at least made a better attempt by passing down the field with a hurry up offense. But what am I to know? Obviously Mariucci chose to wash his hands of this meaningless game even though it would’ve been a great morale booster going into the playoffs and pack up and go home. His evaluation of the team at that point were his own and he chose to not further more possible injuries and call it a game, the context of that decision is debatable as most fans I’m sure would’ve liked to have seen an effort of greater magnitude.
For now we must put the thought of this game behind us, and I pray that all of the players especially dejected Garrison Hearst can do the same. His mistakes in this game were very apparent but I hope that he will rebound with a great effort this coming Sunday. It would be a shame to have lingering effects from this game haunting the boundaries of player’s minds as they concentrate on the Giants.
Subject: good article


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 14:04:46 12/31/02 Tue
Neil Hayes,Contra Costa Times Columnist. "Time for Mooch to make the calls" at "49ers Clubhouse" http://spazioinwind.libero.it/sf49ers/cct3112a.html

TIM
Subject: We have them right where we want them.


Author:
Win
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 14:40:17 12/31/02 Tue
Tank - Walsh said Garcia had maxed out and then, as Garcia continued to improve over the next few weeks, he came out and said that he had far exceeded his expecations. What's the logic here? Because a guy is hired for the mail room he has to stay there the rest of his career, even though he demonstrates the ability to run your finance department? Walsh hired Garcia as an intended backup, same way St. Louis hired Kurt Warner as an intended backup. The shit happened, and they both turned into Pro-Bowlers. How dare they, right?

Sydney - The Rams showed "that they still reign dominance over us"? What game were you watching? We passed the Rams this season, and we'll continue to put distance between us and them over the next several seasons. Mark my words.

I love where we are right now. We stink, basically. Lousiest, most boring offense in the league. Clueless coaches. Sissy, walking-wounded secondary. No killer instinct. No fourth-quarter stamina. QB who chokes in the big games. Facing the hottest team in the NFC. The Farty Niners. "Team Most Expected to Go One and Out in The Playoffs."

Yep. I love it.

I bet Terrell Owens, whom one respected scribe this week described as being "to offense what Lawrence Taylor was to defense", loves it too. I bet Kevan Barlow, who's going to have a 150-yard day next Sunday, loves it.

If this team does not make it to the NFC Championship Game, AT THE VERY LEAST, I will eat a hat.

Keep the faith.
Subject: killer instinct


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 14:51:00 12/31/02 Tue
The Niners take the opening drive and RAM it down the Rams throat.They have the single longest lasting drive in the NFL this entire season!!! They get it to the one yard line but it is 4th down.In a game that has NO meaning in the standings what does the coach do? Does he reward the O line for a truly great opening drive by giving them the chance to punch it in the end zone?Does he take a little chance and go for it and instill that "Killer instinct" in HIS team?(if they don't make it the Rams have the ball on the one and must go 99 yards) Or does he play it VERY VERY CONSERVATIVE and close to the vest and go for the field goal? A tiger CAN'T seen to change his stripes! Killer instinct CAN'T seem to be found in a coach that (perhaps) doesn't have an ounce of it in his entire being! Sadly,in my opinion,that tells the story of our head coach. That and of course the standard 4th quarter nose dive.That's one thing Mooch has seemed to instill into his team. I know,I know,it was only a glorified exhibition game but how many times does this team have to blow a big lead in the 4th qtr. for the team to lose total confidence in itself and its coach? If the Niners get a nice lead against the Giants next Sunday Mooch had better show his players and fans and more importantly for his future here, the owner, that he can put his foot on the other teams neck and chop its head off. GO NINERS and LET'S GO MOOCH ! ! ! TIM
Subject: kicking game


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 14:58:51 12/31/02 Tue
If the Niners are going to stay with Chandler next year(I believe they will)then they need to get a new punter that can also kick off.Chandler looks like he will be a fine field goal kicker but like I have been saying since I saw him in training camp he can't kick off. TIM
Subject: Webster?


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 15:04:16 12/31/02 Tue
Does anyone know the latest on the Webster injury last night??? We really NEED him in the playoffs!!! TIM
Subject: Annoying?


Author:
Uncle Kevin
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 15:41:14 12/31/02 Tue
Annoying? Disheartening? Frustrating?

Yeah. Sure. Then again, I get annoyed, disheartened, and frustrated when my Golden State Warriors lose to the L.A. Lakers.

It's not realistic. It's just a fan thing.

But it's the day after...and the game didn't mean squat... and it wasn't very surprising that the Niners blew the lead in the 4th quarter, considering the fact that damned near all of the Niners who'll be playing next week were on the bench, or at home in the Bay Area during the second half.

The Bad things that happened

Jason Webster's sprained ankle. That's the worst thing that happened, but as long as we've got Plummer on Toomer next week...and someone, anyone, to put on the Giants second WR...we should come out okay.

Garrison Hearst's fumbles. Man, wasn't that bizarr. And you know that means the Giants will be trying their best to rip the ball out of his hands on Sunday. Garrison is gonna be in for a very physical day on Sunday.

Tai Streets' bobbling problem. Tai had some real trouble holding onto the ball last night, especially when he got smacked. Which means, like Garrison, Tai's in for a bruising on Sunday. The Giants will think that if they pound on him...he'll drop the ball.

Kind of a shame to see Josh Shaw limping off the field. He was actually starting to look like a football player again in this game. Hopefully the injury wasn't too serious.

The Good things

Most of our starters got some rest, and got a chance to, as Mariucci says, "healthy up."

And Kyle Kosier looked like a player. I don't know if he's a Tackle...but it sure looks like he's got the talent to develop into a fine NFL Offensive Guard.

I really liked what I saw of Tim Rattay before Willig switched to Guard, and Kosier switched to Tackle, and Lynch replaced Newberry, and Davis came at in Tackle.

After the changes he didn't have much of a chance. But when he was getting fair to middlin' protection...he was very good.
Subject: Donahue puts pressure on Mooch


Author:
TIM
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:27:23 12/31/02 Tue
Donahue just turned up the heat on the Mooch pressure cooker on Monday when he said that the Niners are as good as ANY team in the playoffs and that there is no reason why the Niners can't be the team that wins it all. WOW! Do you think he really believes that or is he just setting himself up with a excuse for when Mooch is forced to leave or whatever Donahue invisions for Mooch's future? TIM
Subject: Arrgghh!


Author:
TANK
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 16:48:56 12/31/02 Tue
I was so encouraged by the first half, AND so infuriated by seeing Rams fans (and their ridiculous signs) celebrate in the second half. I knew things were turning when the score was 17-3, and the 49ers had a first and goal at the seven after Tony Parrish's INT. A rush attempt went nowhere, then the illegal procedure call on Heitmann...I could sense the offense was spent...then Rattay is sacked...argh! That was the beginning of the end. You could just sense it...

If I see one more run on second and ten, I am going to scream!!! NO, I take that back...I did scream! I noticed this tendency in the first half of the season. Then I read about it three weeks ago (the press printed it for all, even the stupidest defensive coordinators). Still, it continues. It is as if Greg Knapp is the only one who didn't read the article exposing his own short comings. I read the Neil Hayes column in the CC Times that TIM cited. Knapp's contract expires after the 49ers' final game this season. He best be concerned...if Mariucci makes the statement that he is taking over playcalling, Knapp's days as an NFL coordinator are shot. Its back to Sacramento State, where coincidentally, they are looking for a new head coach.

And, to think Knapp was the front office's choice to be our head coach if Mariucci had gone to Tampa Bay.

I have argued all along that Mariucci had run a better offense in his earlier days (undeniably with Steve Young and Jerry Rice). Maybe Marty Mornhinweg can be rehired by the 49ers if Detroit cans him.

The 49ers have been outscored 146-79 in the 4th quarter this year. The tendency is to blame the coaches, but what did this same team, with these same coaches do last year? I recall a lot of 4th quarter victories...

Make a note: I agree with TIM! The 49ers should have gone for the touchdown on 4th and one. However, I think Garrison Hearst got exposed last night, and I am not talking about the two fumbles. He hasn't been the same since he was asked to carry the load when Barlow got hurt. Last night he averaged only 3.5 yards a carry. I think you can go back the last four or five weeks and see that he consistantly gets stopped for two and three yard gains, particularly on "passing downs" like 2nd and 10. Is Barlow the answer? Two spectacular runs last night could not hide the fact that he was stopped for little or no gain several times. Again, I look at the line and wonder what is so special. Granted, there were a bunch of second and third stringers last night, but run blocking should be must at this level, against a weak Rams defense. I have said it before and I will say it again, I am not a Ben Lynch fan...the drop off in intensity between him and Newberry is embarrassing.

Plummer and Webster were both burned. Surprisingly, Rumph played error free. Go figure. I know there are a lot of Ahmed Plummer fans, and some of you think he should have been invited to the Pro Bowl, but he should be the #2CB. He isn't a superior athlete, like Deion Sanders, Charles Woodson, etc. He isn't fluid and lacks closing speed. That is draft speak for, "fi he makes a single mistake - one false step, turns the wrong way, slips - he gets burned. Webster's injury could be a disaster! He is listed as "questionable." What is Webster's contract status? Did he get an extension? He isn't "starting" quality. He should be a nickel back.

Chris McAllister will be tagged a "franchise player" by Baltimore, so he isn't an option (unless Mariucci is acquired by Detroit and the 49ers have 1st round picks to burn).

Tim Rattay looked good in the pocket for the first three quarters. Once he got blindsided by Little, he fell apart. As somebody said above, looks good, but lacks intangibles. I couldn't help but notice Rattay's average per completion (9.85) and per attempt (6.8) were better than Garcia's averages, despite being handicapped without Terrell Owens.

Where was Eric Johnson last night? I saw him on the field, but he didn't have a single catch.

Interesting sideline confrontation: "Mariucci had to separate defensive coordinator Jim Mora and special teams coach Bruce DeHaven." I think we all feel frustration with these terrible special teams. LaFleur is a bust, and that brings the front office scouting into question. Remember, these are the same guys who drafted Chandler even though he can't drive a kickoff past the 10 yard line.

Cedrick Wilson is not a return man. Punts and kickoffs were awful. Burned by an onside kick. Sorry Bruce...you are fired!

On the brighter side: We improved our draft position.
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