Is TPSA really THIS BORING ???? Somebody stir up some CRAP or tell a LIE or something !!! Did anybody see Boss Hog push RO's car into the pit wall on Saturday at Darlington ??? Looked like ole' RO was fixin' to open a can of WHOP ASS on "tha' Hog" !!! LOL Aah wait a minute ...... may be that was Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick ???? Good story anyway. -- Texas Pro Stock Association Message Board

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[> Ok, Ill reluctantly bite..... -- Greg Good, 05/11/11 2:24am

Why are there rules in this association that are not checked or enforced?

Example #1: Camshaft diameter.

Example #2: CID...no P & G testing

Example #3: A set of illegal heads winning the Pro class at the #2 race.

No enforcement? Fine! Then get rid of the rules.

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[> [> here we go again - all you gotta do is put your $500 protest fee up - -- txps, 05/11/11 7:31am

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[> [> Greg... thanks for checkin' in. Since the buck basically stops here I'll try to answer your questions....****CLICK HERE**** -- DH, 05/11/11 3:21pm

The largest problem we have is available warm bodies to tech, check rule enforcement, perform race day duties, etc. The $$$ that are required to hire folks isn't there and Randy Elliott is our only "full time" volunteer.. until his ride is ready to race later this year. So we do the best we can with what we have, and an official protest procedure is in place if needed. To address your questions:

1. Most of the competitors know each other and the competing engine builders. I haven't heard of any team questioning camshaft diameter.... and I hear plenty of opinions from almost all of the teams regarding one issue or another.

2. No P&G testing... refer to the comments, and #1 above. I have posted numerous times over the past few years about the difficulty in obtaining "real", repeatable #'s from the P&G tool we own. Conrad, Abbott, and others have tried to use the tool and got less than satisfactory results, and certainly nothing concrete enough to DQ someone over. I've heard we could use a single 12v battery, etc from the guys @ NHRA D4 tech, but their bottom line is to pull a head off if there's any question or discrepancy. Not an option for us at @ TPSA race.

3. If you have been following the development of the "PRO" class you'll remember that it was presented as a work in progress and this first year would be used to gauge interest, develop long term rules, and give more teams a place to play. The team in question called me when the new class and preliminary rules were announced. They advised me of the head they had and wanted to know if they would be allowed to run. A primary goal this year is to accumulate some data for future use and I thought it would be very useful to see how Gary's heads stacked up against the other teams. I had a performance goal in mind (based on the pieces allowed and discussions with engine builders & head guys) and decided in lieu of "hard rules" for the 1st season, a weight adjustment would be imposed on any team that ran away from the field. Gary was aware of the weight adjustment and agreed it was a good idea. Again, this is not in black & white, or finalized, but we're thinking somewhere around .07 faster than the aggregate of the class would be a good place to start. So far, the range has been in the .03 to .05 range which is acceptable, especially when you consider the variety of combo's. At the conclusion of this season, we will use the results and data to firm up the rules for 2012.

I do disagree with your "get rid of the rules" comment. Personally, I believe in the integrity, and desire to compete within the rules of the teams, engine builders, head guys, and other vendors. Of course they're racers and will push the envelope but if I believed we had a blatant "cheater" in the group, I'd be done, and the TPSA would join the many other specialty classes that are no longer around. The TPSA was formed by a group of guys that wanted to have some fun racing heads up with a minimum amount of rules, a "reasonable" budget, and trusting that the members would have enough pride, personal integrity, and honesty to comply with the spirit and direction of the class. I believe in that original concept and have attempted to keep it alive.

As mentioned earlier, other than Randy Elliott, we don't have any "full time" volunteers to tech, run the scales, check fuel, get racers to the lanes, etc. and we welcome any additional help. If you would like to help us with tech at the events, that would be great! It's very time consuming to administrate one of these events and Kay & I are doing the very best we can. Richard Otwell donated his time to some of the race day duties @ an event this year... anyone that wants an unbiased opinion about what all is involved should ask Richard.

It's difficult to keep a class going in today's economic environment, much less grow, or add a class. The simple fact is we have to maintain, and hopefully grow car count so that we all have a place to play in the future. As always, any solutions or suggestions to improve our organization are welcome. Please contact me if you have any questions, or need further info. Thanks for your interest in the TPSA!

DH

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[> [> [> Thank you David -- Greg Good, 05/11/11 3:35pm

David, you are always a gentleman to talk to and that is why I was bold enough to post about the rules.

Your are right about teching. There's not money to hire a tech, nor really any time to do anything in depth. Most races end up finishing late. All the guys that run this association are nice guys that just want to race and have fun, and aren't interested in starting any bad blood with a protest.

I'm curious about the head rule for the Pro class. Shouldn't the same rules for Extreme apply, if the possibility exists for a team to get fast enough to have to move up to that class? Why make the Pro guys run a head that had to be in production in 2007 that will not get a sniff at the Extreme class? A set of heads for the Extreme class is expensive, but not expensive as having to buy two sets of heads, one for Pro, then another set for Extreme if they move up, and that is the goal.

We all want to see the series grow and prosper. Maybe a little deregulation would help? Why not let an engine builder use the biggest core cam that will fit? The big core cams are easier on parts, so that's a plus. If the engines aren't being P&G'd then make a deck height rule, which can be checked fairly easy, and let the guys run whatever cubes they can get away with. Cranks cost the same, pistons cost the same.

Far be it from me to even comment on this, I'm just a guy looking in from the outside, so please excuse me if I'm out of order.

Greg

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[> [> [> [> My "two cents worth" -- "Porky Pig " (Grinnin'), 05/12/11 11:32am

Glad to see you are following TPSA enough to have an opinion. From my perspective, the competition between the fast cars in "Extreme" has pushed the envelope to the point it's not attractive to a start-up team to build something that will compete at our level. I think what DH is attempting to do is create a headsup racing venue that is FUN for the racers to compete in, AFFORDABLE for the racers to build and maintain, and entertaining enough to create a fan base. That's a tall order in todays economic enviroment but I think he's headed in the right direction. I suspect the engine rules will evolve into an affordable "out of the box" combination that any competent engine builder could put together for a reasonable price (say $20K from scratch). Cars and drivetrain components will probably more or less follow suit and hopefully 2 or 3 years down the road TPSA Pro Stock will be able to field 12 to 16 cars consistently that are fun to watch and run pretty close together. Controling cost and keeping the competition close will be DH's biggest challenge but I'm confident he's up to the task. Only time will tell but TPSA has already been around a lot longer than many other racing venues in this area. I hope they make it at least 4 more years. I'll be 70 then and I'm pretty sure I'll be ready to "hang'em up" by then.

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[> [> [> [> [> Been following it a lot longer than you know ;-) -- Greg Good, 05/12/11 9:12pm

The terms "Racing" and "Affordable" grow farther apart every year. You can't even build a fast street car anymore inexpensively. I don't know if those terms ever were very close together. I grew up around racing, working at Harold's Garage. I lived right around the corner from him. (I was the floor mopper and car washer mostly. Did brake jobs in between moppings. LOL. People could eat off his floor)

The only reason I mention this is because I know you knew him. It didn't matter what the rules were, he worked and worked and worked until his car ended up being one of the best in whatever class he was racing. Man hours equal money. Whether you take time from paying jobs and do it yuorself or pay someone else to do it, it costs.

The first car I remember him having was the Anglia.... called Bittersweet. There was always some smack talking going on between him and other guys he raced against (controversy is timeless), some of them even had engines built by Tommy's Father, Luther Costales. It was a helluva time and place to grow up. He took the same approach to his show cars too. It didn't matter how much worh it took, late nights, Sundays, going out of town to swap meets scrounging for parts, he did it, like swiss-cheesing the frame on the Anglia. How can you beat a guy like that? You and Roy are just like him as far as I can tell. And that is a compliment.

Those were fun times. Some things were cheaper I guess. One thing Harold din't spend money on was track rental. He tested right there on Friendly Road. The police would stop by and shake their fingers at him.

Anyway,I think David does and exceptional job, and puts a lot of time into it, time he could spend on other things. But getting money out of racing is an exercise in hair pulling.

Maybe I've inhaled too much aluminum, but I think relaxing the rules some would help car count, and car count gets bookings. In the 80's the TPS association had one main rule, no nitrous. Engines varied from 500" all the way up the biggest IHRA engines Reher was building at the time for the Dallas crew. All the cars were ex-Pro Stockers, and weighed about the same. Oddly enough, even with the engine size and no cylinder rule disparity, a 500" Ford won the championship one year.

That was of funny.

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[> Greg, glad to hear you are busy. Give me a call sometime and we'll go eat lunch -- Slick, 05/11/11 10:01pm

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[>

Greg, since this was aimed at me, here is my input. -- Gary Winscott, 05/12/11 8:39am

Greg, I joined TPSA in 2004 and have for the most part enjoyed every minute. We have well over six figures invested in this deal, and thousands of hours of hard work.
In the last couple of years for a number of reasons, it has gotten harder and harder to compete with the fast guys.
Early in the year David contacted me with this pro idea, which is actually based on Tpsa from 2-3 years ago, and we were "in". We do not have the funds for the X class and plan to stay in pro. I can see a rule change coming(hopefully) that will include newer off the shelf heads like ours (with only cnc porting).We were going to race in another association untill David gave us the opportunity to remain in TPSA and race with the friends we have in TPSA. WE very much want to help build the pro class to give racers like us a place to race heads-up.One last comment would include.. I would invite anyone to check anything they want on our motors. That being said..Ihave raced with all these guys in TPSA for years, and know for a fact that everyone is above reproach. Thanks, Gary

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[> [> Thanks for Chiming in Gary. -- Greg Good, 05/12/11 4:18pm

What do I do *if* someone wants me to do a set of Pro heads for them? As of right now, I don't have a clue.

1. Do I go by the written rules?

Or...

2. Go by the what the rules committee amends them to at a later date (which is what happened in your case).

Or...

3. Try to anticipate the future rules.

As to #3...if a CNC only spec head became the rule for Pro, that would blow me out of the water, All of my heads are hand finished. Yeah, I *could* have a head digitized for $5000, then CNC'd, but that kind of blows the budget spirit of the Pro class.

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[> [> [> Believe me, I of all people would like to establish black & white, no variance, absolutely no deviation, head rules for the PRO class <<<>>>Click for more<<>>> -- DH, 05/12/11 9:11pm

It's important to remember the "PRO" class idea came about at the 11th hour.. just prior to the banquet. The main purpose was to retain the 3-5 teams that were leaving the TPSA to explore other venues and provide a more economical alternative to the XREME class. I've got the help of some very smart folks involved and they don't have a definitive answer as of today... nor did I expect one. This first year was advertised as an experiment along with a fact finding mission, based around the existing rules. All of this adds up to the concept of the rules being firmed up for 2012 around the end of this season.I know of a couple of teams that are looking hard at the PRO class for next year and I've told 'em the same thing. The minute we can firm it up, it will be posted. In the meantime, anyone, specifically those like Greg in the head business should be in contact with me via email or phone to get their opinions heard. I do not have a "personal" agenda nor solution, but I want the class to be affordable/attractive to the start up teams and give the teams that have supported the TPSA for years a place to race without having to race XTREME. A major consideration is to get it right the 1st time to enable a level playing field with consistancy in the rules for years to come. I sincerely believe the rules staying consistant, fair, unbiased and equitable as possible is the primary reason TPSA has stuck around this long.

As far as what to do today for a customer? Someone tell me definitively how much better the HeadHunters, new AFR's, Edelbrocks, or other heads produced since 9/07 are compared to my ancient Greg Good 320's or my CNC 355's. They both make around 1080 when fresh and the short blocks are SG stuff. The engines are relatively quick, extremely reliable, and very low maintenance. We have run a best of 4.72 @ a great track with air that an engine/head guru only dreams about. Based on that, somewhere around 1100-1120hp in the right hands would be plenty nasty... and about where I envision the class being. With today's shortblock technology, even using heads that are "legal" by the existing rules, that is a very attainable goal at a "reasonable" price. Along with the head rule, we need to look @ converters, tires/beadlocks, spec fuel, etc., and maybe even a spec ignition to firm it up. If we have learned anything in the past 8+ years, you better have the rules as explicit as possible....Racers and their vendors are some very crafty people, and the technology changes daily, and if not controlled, adds up to big $$$ quickly. We need hard, accurate, informed, and long term answers to some difficult questions and everyone's opinion will be considered. Remember if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Gotta go load up for Crandall... Click on my initials (in blue) to send me an email. I won't be able to respond 'till Monday. Thanks for everyone's interest and comments.

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[> [> [> [> I don't want to be part of the problem so your post is the last word. Good luck this weekend! -- Greg Good, 05/12/11 9:59pm

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[> So from what im reading, a set of heads that were run 7 years ago should be ok to run? Even if they say Reher & Morrison on them? -- Spot, 05/12/11 9:57pm

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[> [> If memory serves me, Spot made around 1050hp. <<<>>>>Click<<<>>>> -- DH, 05/12/11 11:03pm

She'd probably need to be tuned up a little to run at the front of the "PRO" class now. Spot was a hard running ol' dawg with a smart driver/tuner that was the class of the field at the time. But to answer your question, as long as nothing's been moved (valve guides, seats, ports, spark plug etc) from a stock 360 head (notice I didn't say "casting"), no welding, or head bolt relocation, etc. they should be fine. As I remember they were Dart 360's that weren't all that "trick"... RM just had a very good combo and Jimmy had the chassis dialed.

**Greg, my earlier response was intended to encourage participation, particularly among those like you with experience, to contribute an idea, suggestion, or comment to the discussion. It was not directed at you personally or meant to offend or hinder anyone's constructive input. We need to hear and consider all of the possible solutions. Please feel free to email or call anytime (well, maybe not race week end..LOL!)...I'd enjoy a chance to visit with you.

Just a little more food for thought...I understand today's top Xtreme players make roughly 1220-1250hp or so. Slick Rick posted a dyno sheet but my memory is not that great... maybe he will post the peak # again for me. My view is the PRO class should be around 10% behind in hp (which puts the front runners @ 1100-1120) to improve the affordability, reliability, and required maintenance. That's how we came up with a "target" hp number for the PRO's. They easily should run in the high 60's in good air, low to mid 70's even in the heat. If the newer heads that are on the market have 1130-1170 potential... that's not what we're looking for.

Over in XTREME, the et's will probably be from a high .40 to .50's, depending on weather, for the front runners. The quickest PRO car should never be quicker than any car in XTREME. As previously announced, weight adjustment will be an important ingredient of the final PRO rule package WITH A MAXIMUM ALLOWED. Again it's early but somewhere around 100#'s seems to indicate the entry is plenty fast to move up to XTREME.

Ponder those thoughts over the weekend and make a suggestion, or solution if you have one. Won't be on here after tonite until Sunday afternoon. In the meantime, hope to see ya in the lanes @ Crandall...

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[> [> [> Thanks for the confirmation - we had planned to try and get the car finished in time for crandall but just too much to do in short amount of time. A new player will be giving PRO a shot at the next one! Ya'll still have any "spot remover" left? The old antique motor is now a 565 and makes a tad more than what DH recalled - the owner/driver is new to top level drag racing but he did stay at a holiday inn once. The car is a very nice "1st car" and will run out of the Team O Motorsports shop. -- Team O, 05/13/11 8:35am

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[> [> [> [> Sounds great!... if you want some press shoot me an email and the info and I'll get it posted up next week. -- DH, 05/13/11 10:58am

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[> [> [> [> One more thing.... Spot is still "younger" than the bullet in Ol' Blue (born 10/2001)! It will be fun to renew the old rivalry even though Spot's had a facelift..:) -- DH, 05/13/11 11:03am

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