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Date Posted: Thu, Apr 22 2004, 7:05:37
Author: MKIceman
Subject: Re: Fandoms for killers? You lost me.
In reply to: Ariana Aislinn 's message, "Re: Fandoms for killers? You lost me." on Thu, Apr 22 2004, 3:10:55

>>The majority of fetish homicides (e.g., vampire
>>emulation) is committed by Dungeons & Dragons (or
>>similar fantasy role-playing) fans and fans of similar
>>fantasy brutality (e.g., vampires in the case of
>>vampire emulation). Ask an FBI profiler for further
>>information.
>
>It's true that some people are unbalanced enough and
>don't have enough grasp on the difference between
>reality and fantasy to emulate the things they read or
>see, but since when did that make it dangerous and
>stupid to watch a movie, read a book, or play a game?

I agree to that point, and I was not implying that it's bad to watch any of it or like any of it. (I think this is a case of people reading between the lines again.) I'm merely commenting on the difference between a like and an obsession (e.g., the difference between liking "Nightmare on Elm Street" and being moved to write porn about Freddy).

>Assuming of course that we're discussing adults and
>people who are mature enough to make their own
>decisions. If someone played D&D and then went off and
>slaughtered people, they had other issues and probably
>would have tipped the balance eventually anyway, even
>if D&D hadn't been the cause.

I agree, and it's equally safe to say that such things -- like D&D -- are not the causes, but merely influences.

Unfortunately, we're not talking about adults. We are talking about people still in their formative years, who, like all humans and irrelevant of age, have the ability to form their own decisions. Except that the decisions at that level of maturity are more heavily influenced by exposure than experience. Is it bad to watch things like "Nightmare on Elm Street"? I don't believe so. Is it bad to write sexual fantasies about the demonic killer? Probably. But I don't expect anyone to agree: just making my case for this side of the argument.

>What on earth would be the point of mocking anyone who
>likes a particular fandom? That's as bad as mocking
>fangirls for badfic, which you've stated you disagree
>with.

That's what I want to know. I don't agree with it, myself, which is what I stated at the beginning of the discussion of this point. I said that I found it disturbing, and I agree that fans for murderers are idolizing the wrong images. My agreement ends there (i.e., I still do not agree with mocking them for their beliefs, despite my disagreement with them).

>Why can't we just not be nasty? It's not that hard. I
>don't even think of most GAFFers as nasty people in
>any way; I find most of them to be understanding and
>caring and willing to defend people who need it.

I agree. Although I started it with being nasty toward obsessive fans, the point was to find out if they liked being treated to their own medicine (i.e., since they are nasty to obsessive fans, themselves).

>Oh, and I also disagree with your statement that
>people should take the internet less seriously, or
>rather, I disagree that they have to follow your
>advice. Some people could benefit from that, true, but
>the internet is a powerful tool and communication
>device that many people use greatly. It's a large part
>of our society today. You can't really change that. If
>you don't take it very seriously, fine, I don't
>suppose any of us have a problem with that. But don't
>mock people who DO rely on it.

I agree, and I never mocked anyone who did rely on it. Did I?

>I have a very rich and
>productive life outside the internet, but the people
>on the other side of the screen are REAL people that I
>have REAL interactions with. They deserve respect as
>much as anyone I speak with in real life.

I agree, which is what I have stated repeatedly. But I do not respect those who have no regard for others' feelings (i.e., flamers in this context). That was the point of the original discussion with Ilse.

>Just telling someone they shouldn't be bothered by a
>flame will not, sadly, make them not be bothered by
>it. It's a lot harder to turn off your feelings than
>that, and some people are more sensitive than you are.

I agree, and I have already conceded that point of Ilse's discussion. As I said, we made a Gaussian bell-curve representing impact of insult vs. exposure/experience of the medium (i.e., Internet in this context), where impact of insult is dependent upon perception of criticism.

>Just telling them they shouldn't be won't change
>anything. :/ I know. I've been hurt many times by
>people (in real life AND online) when I knew it
>shouldn't bother me, they didn't have a leg to stand
>on, or their words just didn't deserve attention, but
>I couldn't NOT be upset. You think someone would
>choose to be horribly hurt if they had a choice? I
>don't.

I agree. But why is it that others here still feel the need to flame others, in light of this?

>You're just not as sensitive as some to insult. That's
>not a bad thing, but not everyone is like you, and not
>everyone can change to be like you, nor should they
>necessarily do so even if they could.

I agree, and I do not hope or expect anyone to be like me. But I do feel that, in the Internet Age where the vast majority of Internet users are high school and younger kids, it is important to temper that sensitivity with some objectivity in order to avoid obsessive behavior (which lies at the very heart of what GAFF mocks: fanfiction). Extremes are bad, and I think we can all agree to that. What I have seen here, however, are people eager to flame or harshly criticize others in ignorance of their sensitivity, yet they, themselves, are so sensitive to criticism that they perceive them as insults. And when dosed with their own medicine, they proclaim my nastiness.

--Matt

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