Create a New Forum Admin Login Member Login Contribute to Voyager Search VoyForums Help Desk VoyForums Exchange VoyForums Directory/Categories VoyForums Homepage VoyForums News FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, [10] ]

[ Edit | View ]

[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> We'll agree to disagree on this one Jubellant. I didn't see guilt on Denises face,but fear. Like Theresa said, how in the world were they supposed to tell him about West Point and hitting his mom while he's in Iraq. They couldn't distract him like that, and why was Frank checking his emails, he just got home for heavens sake you'd think he'd talk to his wife. And I'm sorry, but to blast him with those things just after he's gotten home from being missing would have been worse. Jeremy is 18 and should be allowed to make choices about his life without his dad saying, "the boy is going to West Point" and putting pressure of Denise to follow his instruction. -- Kathy, 12:34:21 07/09/07 Mon [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> While you're right Denise has some fault, and Jeremy should have a form of punishment, Denise was right in that she was working on forgiving him and it was her choice. She's starting to stand up to Frank. This man is so alpha and he won't even let Denise go back to nursing in a future preview. And with Franks temper, you can bet your life I wouldn't have told him in bed either. I'm not excusing Jeremys actions and I'm not saying Denise is totally innocent, but I am saying right now Frank is an idiot. Also, Jeremy went to the Holdens to talk to Michael and Amanda anweres the door. He wasn't there to see Amanda, he was there to see Michael and he was honest with Michael and reaching out for help. His relationship with Amandas start much later. -- Kathy, 12:37:47 07/09/07 Mon [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Jeremy was only there after he was caught by Roxy and Denise threatened to throw him out (a family theme here?). The cat was out of the bag, he was saving his skin. You are right about him being there first and running into Amanda after. Jeremy had the nerve to cont. hitting his Mom after being warned by Michael. As to Denise showing fear, I didn't perceive that as Frank had been calm about the West Point thing. Denise told CJ that she had surprised how well he took it. She had never seen Frank so angry only after finding out about the hitting. As you say we'll have to just disagree on the timing thing. Hey I'm ancient and the parents still think they can tell you what to do. When I call them on it they laugh. Not that they get anywhere LOL! One real AW said they preferred being truthful. -- Jubellant, 13:11:21 07/09/07 Mon [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[ Edit | View ]

[ Edit | View ]

[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> Even if he was trying to protect Denise from Jeremy he should have seen that it was hurting her worse to throw her son out into the cold without any place to go. She'd just gone from not knowing if he was dead or alive to fearing that Jeremy was also now in danger because he was essentially homeless. If Jeremy was still a threat to Denise, if he needed to be removed, then he should have been sent to a specific place where he could get some help and his parents knew where he was and that he was safe. When Frank said, "That's not the boy I raised." He was damned right. Denise raised him, and she was working it out with him. He can't be a part time parent and full time boss of the house. It doesn't work that way. -- Theresa, 15:36:55 07/09/07 Mon [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> it truly angered me that Frank made it about himself: it was HIS wife who got hit by HIS son so it was HE who had been injured. oh, and the story shouldn’t be on HIS record. His wife and kid are not his family but his property. I have a feeling that it hasn’t much to do with the crash but with who Frank really is (btw, isn’t the ep’s title “Who we are”?). He has a caveman mentality: thanking Jeremy for having been the man of the house & taken care of his mother… the way he said it made me believe he was convinced that Denise needed a man to take care of her. This is consistent with the way he disregards her opinions, he can’t truly love her as he doesn’t respect her (inside) -- jo, 00:11:34 07/10/07 Tue [1]

the contrast with Michael Holden’s household is striking. Whereas Michael is also used to command and have people obey his orders (actually, he is a bigger boss than Frank and he has been in combat too), he treats CJ with respect not only with affection. He listens to her opinions, he truly considers her pov, and they discuss together the decisions concerning their daughters. She is his equal, where Denise is far from being Frank’s equal in their home. Denise isn’t supposed to have any opinions, she must take her orders from her husband and obey them without thinking. It has nothing to do with stress, which must have amplified Frank’s reaction but IMO didn’t prompt it. One doesn’t kick his kid out of the house like that. I would have expected a slap or something, not Frank saying his son is dead to him

[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Wow jo, another Great Post. I agree wholeheartedly and once again you've said it all for me. Take Care! :o) -- KH, 05:27:22 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> Some very valid points made here jo. It is interesting that both women were in the midst of their education and gave up their future careers to marry. CJ's husband values her opinions whereas Frank does not seem to value Denise's. Denise gave Jeremy the same ultimatum about kicking him out of her home and would change the locks. We saw three evidences of abuse and as far as I'm concerned Strike Three and you are out! Denise was willing to cut her son some slack. Frank's theory was one time was one time too many. Jeremy was not acting like a son but like the man of the house who thought he had a right to abuse his mother. He is 18 not a child. If he man enough to hit his mother he is man enough to bear the consequences. Last I heard schools had guidance counsellors. He didn(Inside) -- Jubellant, 05:36:10 07/10/07 Tue [1]

ITA with you about Frank's comment about his son being dead to him. That was over the top. He should have expressed his diappointment. The Frank Denise relationship needs alot of work. Possessiveness isn't love. That Denise didn't complete her nursing studies first before marrying Frank speaks volumes to me. Love is grand and all but it is wise to have a fallback plan even just in case anything ever happened to Frank she knows she could be self sufficiant. Nursing is a high demand profession and would come in handy wherever they were stationed. Claudia Joy is not the type to take a back seat to anyone. Denise on the otherhand just let herself be directed by her husband. People treat you how you let them.

[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry pressed the wrong key! I started to say Jeremy didn't think saying sorry was enough? Hello, it was a place to start. He needed Amanda to tell him that?!! Write his Mom a letter of apology. I don't know why I did it? Give me a break. You just start beating up on your Mom and you don't know why? I agree the young man has problems but he's 18 for crying out loud. Did he do it to give him a reason to opt out of West Point? I don't deserve to go there, he stated. The fact that he even tried it and even taunted his mother that she wouldn't tell speaks volumes about his character. If he were 12 or even 14 maybe I'd have a bit more sympathy but sorry, his remorse just didn't ring true to me. -- Jubellant, 05:46:37 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Again I disagree Jubellant but I'll leave it at that. I again agree with jo and Theresa. -- Kathy, 06:47:29 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> No problemo Kathy, that is what a discussion is all about, different viewpoints. You may see where someone is coming from, or not. You may even pursuade a few to change their original viewpoints, or not, which is what makes it all interesting. -- Jubellant, 07:19:37 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> Ixia I too wondered about Denise's statement about the education part, but surmised since she said it that it was not mandatory to enter the military. Maybe what one would have to do is pay back the cost of the education. It does seem like he runs his household like Captain Von Trapp. Theresa, I agree with your assessment of who the primary parent was and that Frank should have respected his wife's claim that she was working out the situation. When you are used to having people jump at your command I guess it is not always easy to turn off that switch at home. He is just home from a life and death situation and his judgement may not be all there. The anger is probably stemming from the helplessness to prevent certain things at work and using overkill to correct a situation at home. -- Jubellant, 16:07:52 07/09/07 Mon [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> I think Jubellant's last 2 sentences, pretty much hit the nail on the head. Have more to say, but it's 1am and I can't quite get the words straight in my head. -- Ixia, 17:00:42 07/09/07 Mon [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[ Edit | View ]

[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> I'd like to point out that Jeremy's male figure is a hothead who dictates everything. When you watch the scenes of him abusing his mother every one of them surrounds anger at his father, and her backing his father up. Yes he's 18, but he's still a little boy in his head. I don't think he realizes that he's lashing out at her for being weak against his father. He learned that abusive nature from Frank. -- Theresa, 09:25:56 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Wow Theresa again we agree..lol. -- Kathy, 09:43:14 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Observe in the previews for next week, how Frank is still on the rampage and getting rid of all of Jeremy's things. Then Denise goes in there and starts expressing herself and when she touches him to get his attention, watch how he whips around on her and jerks his away as if he can't stand her or be touched by her. Jeremy comes by it naturally. Like Theresa said, Frank is a hothead who dictates everything and wants everything in his neat tiny order, and who cares what anyone elses opinions and feelings are. He gives me the shivers with his anger. -- Kathy, 09:48:49 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> I noticed that too. He is almost acting like he has something seriously wrong with him his face just says it all. It gives me the shivers also!!! -- Erin, 12:19:16 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> Two statements come to mind. One, when Jeremy says he has been the man of the house since he was 7 and two Denise stated I have raised a son who hits his mother. Jeremy's told his Mom she had time to help her friends but not him, that she doesn't listen to him. Denise tolerated his abuse and was the primary parent in Jeremy's upbringing. I agree with her that it is her problem to fix. She obviously did not pick up on her son's growing anger and with Frank gone I am wondering what distracted her from seeing her son was in serious need of help. Most sons are protective of their mother's, the fact that Jeremy isn't, speaks volumes about their relationship. (Inside) -- Jubellant, 14:43:42 07/10/07 Tue [1]

I am not saying I agree with Frank's behaviour but I do have to credit the guy for not resorting to physical violence. I'd rather see him take out his anger on inanimate object such as Jeremy's things. I also have to credit Frank from his reversal on West Point it showed he does have a rational side. Frank is also angry with his wife for keeping him in the dark. The whole family dynamic needs professional help. I have seen people inflate when they are angry but have seen them deflate just as quickly. Frank has not been challanged by his wife before. I think he is in for a major surprise when he realizes his wife is no longer willing to say yes dear. He will eventually respect her more for it (I hope). As for Jeremy for me, the jury is still out on him.

[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> Just a question Theresa. Where do you get that Frank is abusive? Denise has stated he would never hit a woman. He might be domineering and have the old school I'm the man of the house mentality but I don't think we have seen abusive have we? Anger definitely. -- Jubellant, 14:51:15 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> Just wanted to add one more thing, Frank's initial anger was understandable if over the top. As I reviewed next week's previews Frank's anger is cont. to escalate. I must admit this does concern me. Frank is the adult here and should be cooling off by now. I don't totally disagree with him tossing Jeremy out of the house for a night but to extend this knee jerk reaction does nothing to provide a solution to the problem. It just sends an angry young man out there on an unsuspecting world. Jeremy's behaviour puts others at risk and as the parents never really fully addressed this issue, they do have an obligation to at least attempt to correct the problem. (See, discussion helps :)!) -- Jubellant, 16:13:01 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> I don't think Frank is abusive at all and I think people are being too quick to judge him on one incident. I loved the sweet goodbyes between him and Denise when he was being deployed, you don't send love notes to a man who is making you unhappy. OK so their relationship may have been old fashioned, but at that point their was no indication that Denise was unhappy with it, in fact I don't think she was.I suspect Frank may not have been a good enough father, but as he said, recent events had given him a new perspective. He received the news from Jeremy about Westpoint in a good natured and fatherly way (more inside..) -- Ixia, 16:25:49 07/10/07 Tue [1]

I suspect that if Jeremy had not hit his mother, then they would have had a startiong point for a better relationship.

Nobody expected Frank to react the way he did over Jeremy's confession, Denise had never seen him so angry before. That doesn't to me suggest someone with an anger management problem, but more someone under extreme stress, we shouldn't forget what an ordeal he had just been through. He does seem to fetch the army into his home life far too much, but I wonder if that is the front he needs to keep things together at the moment. He wasn't violent and didn't hit Jeremy, infact Michael Holden was more aggressive in pinning Jeremy against a wall. I think people are glossing over the fact that Jeremy hit his mother, not once but several times - he's not a child, but an adult. It's something that's beyond awful. I watched the episode again where Roxy defended Denise against him and it's difficult to feel sorry for him, it wasn't just a slap, but he really went for her - if Roxy hadn't walked in...what then? I'm not sure if it was wrong of Frank to make Jeremy leave the house, in two minds there. But he has no right to make that choice for Denise.

He isn't taking Denise's opinion into account and that is wrong on so many fronts, but he does need time to adapt to the new status quo. She hasn't been assertive in the past, but if she wants things to change then she has to facilitate that change.

Also I don't think it has been mentioned before, but I wonder how Frank and Denise's upbringings have influenced their relationship. Denise is from an old school military family, she's probably been brought up with the idea of the father being the head of the household.

Apologies for the small novel, this is what happens when you take a day to mull things over - lol.

[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> I think everyone is blown away by what has happened. Denise never thought she'd have to defend herself against her son. She never thought she'd have the guts to stand up to anyone like that. Frank never thought it would be a problem. Jeremy never thought his mother would be assertive with him and threaten to throw him out of her life if he did it again. He never thought his father would do just that by hearing about it. These people don't know each other or themselves very well. All of these things happened, and they never thought they would. -- Theresa, 16:59:34 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Also if Denise was perfectly happy with the way things were, and how Frank treated her, then she's probably never seen this side of him at all. This is all uncharted territory. They were happy in their little perfect 1940's traditional cocoon until their son got sick of his father's dictatorship and didn't know how to handle his anger. Denise is too sweet to show her anger so he didn't learn anger management from her, and Frank's household was being ran the way he wanted so he didn't have any anger to manage either. Neither Frank nor Denise expect Jeremy to be angry or even understood why. I don't blame Frank for his anger, I'd throw my son out the window if he tried to hurt me or my husband, but I wouldn't throw him out of my life. I blame him for his disregard for Denise. -- Theresa, 17:10:16 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> An abusive nature and abusive behavior are two different things. Frank has the discipline to never hit a woman, but he's a hothead. Look at the way he pulls away from Denise in Anger and sort of shoves her back in the preview. Frank has all the marks of someone who would be abusive had he not the self discipline. He expects that same self discipline from his son, but was never around to teach it to him. And it looks like Denise didn't think she'd have to. The abuse only started 6 months before the premiere. It's a relatively new developement, and it looks like Denise missed the signs along the way that pointed to raising an abuser. Most people miss the signs because they can't fathom it ever happening. -- Theresa, 16:48:38 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> It's difficult to tell from the preview as it's edited and moves so fast. But Denise doesn't shy away from him, there's no fear there and she puts her hand forward and almost pushes him in the stomach as if she is going to force him to listen to her. I don't see that he shoves her, just pulls away. -- Ixia, 17:14:57 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> I'll look again. What I'm saying is, that I don't think Frank would ever hurt Denise because he has more self control than that, but Jeremy has that same hot temper without the self control. Frank is domineering and dismissive of her feelings. They've probably never been in this situation before. She wouldn't be afraid of him. She wouldn't see that those are the marks of an abuser. There are many people who have a tendency and choose to suppress it. I think before now Frank suppressed his tendency to lash out. He didn't need to show it. Now he's showing it, but choosing not to be an abuser. Some people are too gentle natured to be an abuser, and others just choose not to be though they could easily be that way. I believe Frank is the latter. -- Theresa, 17:22:35 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I do hear what you're saying and I don't mean that in a buzz-phrase kind of way :) I don't feel I can class someone as an abuser just because they have the capability. He's a soldier obviously he will have the capability to resort to violent acts and the self control to keep it in check. ....I've suddenly got the vision of the two of us replaying the lifetime clip over in another window, just so we can see whose arms and hands are where. It's 1.35am here and I'm fast losing my capacity for rational thinking :/ -- Ixia, 17:37:34 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Excuse the spelling, I pressed enter for a new paragraph and it erm...entered my post into the thread. -- Ixia, 17:39:27 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I never said he was an abuser. I said he had an abusive nature which Jeremy inherited. He certainly didn't get the fiery temper from his mother. That's all I was saying. -- Theresa, 19:53:44 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Michael Holden told Jeremy he had respect for Frank. Frank stated at the welcome home activities that one of his men the age of his son died in his arms. Denise has said she has never seen him this angry. Frank was fortunate to even be alive. Until his son decided he did not want to attend West Point that was the direction his life had been headed. Major Sherwood's military style at home might have been his way of preparing Jeremy for that lifestyle. The first extended time we see Frank at home is after a traumatic experience. Can we be jumping the gun a little on his reactions? We did see him interacting positively with his son until he heard about the abuse of his mother. -- Jubellant, 23:44:51 07/10/07 Tue [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Frank's West Point reaction makes better sense, now (my 5 year old had the Mommy's when the show started the other day & I didn't hear all of the speech). After having one of his men die in his arms, that was his son's age, he's glad his son is choosing a career where he will be much less likely to be in harm's way. Frank was a tad peturbed that neither his wife nor son had told him about West Point, but I'm not sure he had given them a chance, either. -- Texasbrat, 05:01:03 07/11/07 Wed [1]


[ Edit | View ]