| Subject: Re: Ok, on a lighter note... |
Author:
Daniel
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Date Posted: 15:54:48 05/01/03 Thu
In reply to:
Jake
's message, "Re: Ok, on a lighter note..." on 12:26:50 05/01/03 Thu
>I kind of disagree with your whole originality
>argument. I mean, I'm not saying that you're wrong to
>like subs for that reason, just that I don't see it
>that way. You say you prefer to hear the voices and
>script that reflect the original creator's intent, but
>let's think about what that really means. Are the
>pitch, volume, etc of an actor's voice really the
>creator's intent, or is it the meaning that the pitch,
>volume, etc conveys to its audience? I would say, and
>I doubt you would disagree, that the importance of a
>character's voice is what it says about that
>character, not the literal acoustical qualities of it.
Yes, I do think that things such as the characters tone, volume and so on ARE important to the original intent. Everyone thinks the imagery/animation is important (which it is), but the voices that convey the actual dialogue are just as important. To eliminate the creator's original intent in this is to remove a portion of his vision altogether. I also feel that the sound is important since it's obvious the emotions themselves are conveyed through them. Given, the animation does as well (i.e. a girl crying), however by the same token, if the girl sounds stupid and like she's faking it...we don't sympathize with the character.
>The problem with having the original creator oversee
>the dubbing and say "Yes that is the emotion I was
>going for" is that a Japanese creator does not fully
>understand how emotions are communicated in the United
>States. If I made a movie and it was being dubbed
>into Japanese, I would much rather have a Japanese
>director that I respect be in charge of the dubbing
>than for me to be in charge of it myself. Of course,
>I would want to make sure the director understood my
>work first, and I would try my best to explain my
>vision to him and how I tried to portray the
>characters. But then I would leave it to him to
>represent that vision in a Japanese context.
However, by the same token, we seem to agree for the most part (although it may not appear so). In your instance, you specifically mention that if the director/creator talked to the US director and conveyed what he wanted, this would be acceptable. By that token, I wouldn't see it so much as a dub any more (since a dub is to DUB over the originally intended voice). In this case, he is putting a new audio track on that still contains his intentions.
I do wanna also add (as I stated in the e-mail) that things in Rurouni Kenshin and things like Osaka-ben CANNOT be translated and CANNOT be conveyed in English. As I said earlier, Kenshin uses a polite form of Japanese and even if you don't know Japanese, you can hear that he talks differently than the other cast members. Same goes for Sano (Eleanor, correct me if I'm wrong, but does he speak Osaka-ben or is he just "gangster-like" speak and Tae/Sae speak Osaka-ben?). Although a sub cannot translate this (hell they used him repeating himself like "I am Kenshin, yes I am"), a sub still at the very least maintains the voices and inflections.
I would also like to bring this point up...which I warn you will sound bad...anime is made for the Japanese. I know it's hard for some of you to swallow, but...most creator's don't give two shits about what we think. They INTENDED their shows to be in JAPANESE for JAPANESE PEOPLE. So, all this talk about original intent (even to me) is a moot point. Anime may be doing quite well and is actually becoming somewhat influential in anime decision (IIRC some % greater than 20 accounts for the net profit to anime companies), but in the end anime is for the Japanese. The creators intend them to be in Japanese and for the Japanese and I don't think they even think about the fact their work may be dubbed. Just thought I'd bring that up since...I just thought about it :-P
>This argument is even more important when it comes to
>translation. When an actor changes a line because he
>"thought the character wouldn't say that," the only
>reason I have a problem with that is because he's only
>an actor (and probably not a very good one), and I
>don't trust him to make that kind of judgement.
>Ideally, the person making these kinds of judgements
>should be a talented writer or director who has seen
>and enjoyed the entire anime and if possible has
>discussed the project with the original creator.
>
>In that situation, I say the script *should* be
>changed when it's determined that a character would
>never say a certain line, although ideally it would be
>discussed with the original creator first. This way
>we avoid the problem of lines that just aren't
>appropriate in an American context. For example, I
>don't know how many times I've heard anime characters
>exclaim "That's not something you say casually!" Have
>you ever heard an American say that? I sure haven't.
>In such a case, I think it's the translator's job to
>replace that with a more American line that still
>stays true to original creator's intent in the sense
>that I've defined it above.
I agree with you that someone who has seen the show and appreciates it should do that sort of job, but you and I know that's not the case. And by the same token, the people working on it have certainly not talked to the creator or gotten his input. If the creator were to come down, talk to the cast, director and so on and told them what he wanted...I would be perfectly satisfied with this. His original intentions are still being preserved and just translated.
I still stand by my point of original intent (and to a degree you're saying the same thing...with the creator conveying what he wants). I know the Darth Vader analogy is an over-exaggeration, but A) exaggerations work well in debates :-P and more importantly B) it clearly illustrates original intent being ruined.
I don't wanna sound arrogant, but the way I've always seen it (and not only with anime..all foreign films) is that the creator creates something and wants to share something with you, the audience. The fact that he/she is willing to share something with me is in itself an honor for us the audience and the least I can do is respect his/her work (even if I end up hating it) and see it as it was originally intended. Call me a purist (which seems to be interchangeable with elitist), but I like to see things as close to the original as possible.
I mention in my e-mail that a dub goes through two iterations of change while a sub only one. In a dub you lose more than a sub...you lose the voices and some translation. With subs, you only lose a bit of translation (depending on the translator). Again..maintaining purity. Then again, I guess I should be watching it raw...but then again that's not even sufficient. Some things you have to have lived in Japan and understand their culture to understand...D'oh!
-Daniel
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