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Subject: "The CAA is not interested in a merger." Author: ramMan [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 07:27:38 11/09/04 Tue A-10 battling for existence Newsday [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

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Subject Author Date I hope Fordham joins A-10 in football... Villanova, Richmond, Rhode Island, UMass, Maine, New Hampshire... plus we can schedule 1 1A.... combo of 3 other games (Ivy or PL teams).... Make it happen... The competition would be stiff but it would be worth it from many prospectives.... Fordham Football to A-10... (NT) rammed 09:41:31 11/09/04 Tue So much for A-10 football. Patriot League is looking better and better. A-10 football will be a Villanova and a couple of New England State schools. That would pack them in! (NT) Ramadama 09:41:35 11/09/04 Tue I think A-10 is right move for FU.. Full scholly's will allow a 1A game each year... Also you mention Ne state schools ..well Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette in PA dont excite me either.. The A-10 is better football ... also the schools left in A-10 each represent a different state... of which it doesnt hurt to have Fordham athletics involved... A-10 now.. (NT) -- #8, 09:52:51 11/09/04 Tue I disagree. Richmond and Villanova are as appealing as (maybe more than) Colgate and Lehigh. UMass, Rhode Island, New Hampshire and Maine are definitely more appealing than Lafayette and Bucknell. We could (and should) play Holy Cross and Columbia out of conference every year. We could round out the out-of-conference schedule with a I-A opponent (Army, Navy, Duke, etc.), a CAA team (Delaware, William & Mary, etc.), a PL school (Colgate, Lehigh, Georgetown, etc.) and/or an Ivy League team (Penn, Princeton, etc.). (NT) -- ramMan, 11:46:36 11/09/04 Tue The new A-10 is going to be made up of a bunch of cow colleges from New England and Villanova, Richmond and Hofstra. Why is that so great? Wanting to move to scholarship football is one thing. Telling me people will be breaking down the doors to see URI, Maine, UMass and New Hampshire? I don't see them as bigger draws that Lehigh, Colgate or Bucknell. We've played Rhode Island. I don't recall it being a sell-out. If NH and Maine, travel with big crowds, it doesn't show in their attendance. I like to think we have for more in common with PL schools than ag schools from New England. (NT) -- Ramadama, 16:19:28 11/09/04 Tue I respectfully disagree. First off, Hofstra would not be in the new A-10 (it’s an all-sports member of the CAA). Re the New England “ag” schools, with the exception of UMass, I agree, they’re not going to draw enormous crowds, but they are a step up in competition (New Hampshire is ranked #7 in this week’s polls, Maine went to the I-AA playoffs four times, Rhode Island three times, and UMass six times, winning the I-AA Championship in 1998). (NT) -- ramMan, 19:54:57 11/09/04 Tue Cow colleges? There hasn't been a "cow college" in New England in 100 years. I hate to burst your bubble, but the liberal arts programs at those schools are comparable to ours. (NT) -- Rambacker, 23:07:41 11/09/04 Tue UNH is still a cow college. I was there just a few weeks ago. There's a dairy operation on campus w/ a dairy management program. I believe UMass and URI still have agricultural programs as well. By the way, the UNH football "stadium" was definitely not impressive (nor was UMass' or URI's for that matter). The only things I liked were the chairbacks and plastic bench seats in the center section, and the track which circled the field. Visitor's stands appeared puny and dilapidated, the "press box" was a hut. Overall looked worse than what we have, more like a high school in Nowheresville. (NT) -- DamnRam, 09:09:46 11/10/04 Wed Sorry, but while most of those schools may not be "cow colleges" they are for the most part mediocre land grant colleges that have almost nothing in common with Fordham. If you are telling me their academic programs are on par with ours, a lot of kids are going to want a tuition refund! Richmond and Villanova are different but there aren't any other schools that do anything for Fordham. UConn is the only state university to break the mold of the old time "State U" model. This is one of the reasons they got out of the A-10. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 09:34:30 11/10/04 Wed The A-10 football conference as a group is not going away. The schools like Richmond, Villanova, URI etc. will continue to have a league and will play CAA schools regularly. We should make the move to full scholarship 1-AA football. A sample schedule if we did: Villanova, Richmond, Army/Navy(play one each season), Delaware, URI, Colgate, UNH, Lehigh, UMass, Columbia, Maine. Looks pretty good to me. A much more attractive schedule than we have now. Let's do it. (NT) Rambacker 11:52:31 11/09/04 Tue A-10 vs. PL for Fordham LUHakwer 14:16:53 11/09/04 Tue Scholarships are a big draw for a HS athlete... It also would allow FU to field a better team in general ..and increase the chance of playing a 1A each year.. No disrespect Lehigh.. but 3 teams in Pa. in PL arent exciting for an FU fan.. at least a Villanova, Delaware, UMass..an occasional Army/Navy/Rutgers type is more exciting option..... (NT) -- A-10 now, 14:32:55 11/09/04 Tue No disrespect taken. Though Lehigh doesn't get too excited about FU either and I doubt Delaware, UMass or a I-A will. Unfortunately, I think you are still missing the fundamental tenet of my question, which is, if FU can't compete in the PL, why will it then be a better recruiter against UMass, Del, Villanova or W&M? I think FU's challenges go beyond conference affiliation. If Lehigh and Colgate can recruit well and be very competitive, why can't FU, since we all have the same constraints. Those A-10 schools have even more resources for FB than the PL. Just trying to really understand it. (NT) -- LUHawker, 16:37:59 11/09/04 Tue Re: Frankly, if Fordham is to go, this is the time most favorable to the school. The FB program is in good shape. The school's stature will have a significant restorative effect to A-10's academic/athletic profile. There will be some transition issues, like those Towson is facing, but with your facility upgrades and hopefully a new Athletic Director, you can surmount them. Fordham will not have to apologize to anybody - the A-10 will be thrilled to add your FB program. (NT) -- Go...'gate, 17:08:49 11/09/04 Tue Fordham's problem is that for football purposes it can be categorized as both a small school or a large school (more inside) -- DamnRam, 17:39:22 11/09/04 Tue Fordham has one thing going for it that no other PL team does: genuine historical stature on a national basis. But we squander this advantage by failing to commit the resources necessary for the program to be successful on a yearly basis. We've been successful the last few years, but there's no assurance that will continue. (NT) -- JoltinJoe, 20:38:16 11/11/04 Thu (continued) I'd like to see a stadium with more charm than the existing facility ( just a huge bleacher). Long term, I'd like to see the PL itself move to scholarship football, and take Richmond and Villanova from the CAA/A-10 mix. The best result for Fordham, as I see it, is no A-10 football after the CAA raid on the A-10, and a scholarship PL including Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, Richmond and Villanova -- a great league of first-tier institutions committed to playing I-AA football at its highest level. Now that is something we can market. (NT) -- JoltinJoe, 20:40:38 11/11/04 Thu That'd be an interesting scenario but it's unlikely to happen. Richmond made promises to Clawson which will keep them at the full scholarship level & competing in markets well beyond the PA/NY/Worcester Patriot League corridor. And from what I hear re: Nova, their board is resolved to continue playing their traditional football rivals Delaware, Richmond, William and Mary, etc. I think our choices will be full scholarship 1-AA football in the "new", upgraded CAA or stay a need-based aid program in the Patriot League. If the PL was going to go full scholarship, they would have done it by now. (NT) -- Rambacker, 10:02:43 11/13/04 Sat I know it's not likely to happen, largely because of the PL's "holier-than-thou" attitude on scholarships. The PL should stop trying to be Ivy wannabes. It should allow the full 63 scholarships, recruit Nova and Richmond, and become a league of top-tier academic schools playing I-AA football at its highest level. Now that would be truly unique, and such a commitment would gain more attention for the PL than being a poor man's Ivy League. (NT) -- JoltinJoe, 12:58:37 11/14/04 Sun Interesting but let me share Coach C's thoughts. I posed same q to him at the recruiting reception (he had already announced his depart for Rich). He thinks such a move would be a big mistake. One: FU has nothing in common with most of these schools whereas we share a common commit to academics with the PL. Second, he doesn't believe current administration would ever commit to the upgrade in facilities needed to compete year in and year out with A-10. He thinks field turf, visitor stands and better locker rooms are enough to keep us competitive in PL (NT) Jimbo CBA'72 17:26:06 11/09/04 Tue With all due respect, Jimbo, let's get real here on that statement from Coach Clawson. Of course he doesn't want Fordham to join the A-10 - do you think he wants to see us go down to Richmond with full scholarships and kick his butt? If we move up, it makes him look like he made a lateral move. No coach wants people to think he made a questionable decision. If we stay in the PL, it makes him look like a took a step up. His comment was purely from a subjective, personal standpoint. He's looking out for #1, namely - himself. (NT) -- Rambacker, 18:30:01 11/09/04 Tue I was there as well. Dave Clawson was being forthright with his answer. He did not have, as you put it,, "a subjective personal standpoint. . .looking out for #1, namely himself." Why the attack against him? Because he disagrees with you? We know and respect Dave. His was not a casual statement but his good faith assessment of the Fordham situation.. We have no idea who you are, Rambacker, and what your credentials are. Care to elighten us? (NT) -- believes Clawson, 20:07:02 11/09/04 Tue That rant from Rambacker has got to be the most preposterous, immature comment I've ever read on this board. No one is that paranoid. Besides, who would be in a better position to comment on a move to the A-10, and whose opinion carries more weight, Clawson or Rambacker? Gee, let me think for a second.... (NT) -- Maroon, 21:31:41 11/09/04 Tue It's naive to take Coach C's comments as being in Fordham's best interests. For those of us who know him, we're keenly aware that, even though he did a great job of building our program, he's very adept at watching out for himself. Ask his former players. If you think he wants to see Fordham as a full scholarship program going to Richmond & kicking butt, you're wrong. We all know what he did for Fordham, but let's be practical & realistic. We need to do what's best for Fordham, not take the advice of a coach who has left the program & has another agenda. Let's look out for Fordham first. (NT) -- Rambacker, 21:47:12 11/09/04 Tue I was there during that conversation and I agree with Rambacker. Clawson had moved on to another agenda at that point and had his own interests at heart when he made his comments. At that point, he did not know that Fr. McShane would be making the enhancements he's making(FieldTurf, new locker room, scoreboard, etc.) but he has always been good at looking out for his own interests(not to demean the tremendous job he did at Fordham). Going scholarship 1-AA would be great for Fordham. (NT) -- '69, 10:56:10 11/10/04 Wed Last week in a university-wide forum, Fr. Joe flatly stated that there would be no changes for FB. Additionally he is putting pressure on Admissions to reject recruits that don't meet the higher profile of the general population in the last few years. Obviously Fr. McShane agrees with Coach Clawson as well. (NT) -- FU-worker, 11:17:43 11/10/04 Wed Just talked to someone who attended that forum and they have a different take. They said Fr. Joe hedged his comment by saying "at this time". Doesn't sound that "flat" to me. We'll see what the future brings. (NT) -- Rambacker, 14:18:32 11/10/04 Wed And what would his former players say....this should be good. (NT) -- Ramadama, 13:40:29 11/10/04 Wed Why don't you ask them. You'll get an earful. (NT) -- Rambacker, 14:16:07 11/10/04 Wed You're full of crap. There may be a few players who weren't thrilled with him so what? That really was a low blow on your part. (NT) -- Ramadama, 14:25:43 11/10/04 Wed They guys who didn't play didn't like him.... shocker. (NT) -- Guy, 16:46:04 11/10/04 Wed You really don't have a clue. It's not a low blow at all. I have tremendous respect for Clawson and believe we owe him a lot for building our program from ground zero. But any coach is going to do what they need to do to get ahead. If you think he was thinking purely in terms of what's best for Fordham and not for himself since he had already left Fordham, then you need to get a grip on reality. (NT) -- Rambacker, 17:08:47 11/10/04 Wed No, you're making it sound like there was widespread mistrust of the guy. The guy left for a better job, get over it. He's moved on and he gave his opinion of where the program has the best future. Anything that happens at Fordham now doesn't effect his career one way or another. It was a low blow. (NT) -- Ramadama, 17:21:13 11/10/04 Wed You're twisting the clearly stated meaning of my post, which was to state the obvious. That any coach after he leaves a job is looking ahead, not back and has his own interests at heart first and foremost. There was no intent on my part to "make it sound like there was widespread distrust" of Coach Clawson. You need to get a grip on reality here and not overblow things to fit your position on the subject. (NT) -- Rambacker, 17:58:04 11/10/04 Wed One of the things people, with some exceptions, often miss here when talking about an A-10/CAA split is that if the A-10 manages to lure a few teams over and remain a 1-AA football conference then UMass, Richmond and URI have no choice but to stay in the A-10 unless they move all of their other sports out of the A-10. I am confident when I say that 1-AA football is not going to drive these school's main conference affiliation. (NT) JóDete93 08:59:07 11/10/04 Wed Agreed. I strongly believe that if the A10 could snag Fordham that in itself would significantly help to stabilize the conference and make it more enticing for Nova and Richmond to stay.. (NT) -- DamnRam, 09:12:13 11/10/04 Wed Since you used the phrase "enticing...to stay" I feel that you are still missing the point. If the A-10 decision makers are determined to keep football then by rule Richmond *has* to say in the A-10, they have no choice. UMass and URI would not have a choice either since those 3 already play their other sports in the A-10. You then have ME and NH, I suspect for travel purposes they would prefer to stay with UMass and URI. That makes 5. At that point the only team you would have to entice is Nova and right now I can see valid arguments for them going either way. (NT) -- JóDete93, 09:43:38 11/10/04 Wed Very true, I stand corrected on that - Richmond, URI, and Umass wouldn't have a choice, UNH and UME wouldn't have realistic alternatives. I guess then the real issue becomes how does the A10 make the league more enticing for Nova to stay, instead of going to the CAA with Delaware. The only way they could do that would be to bring in other attractive opponents. It's a shame Northeastern left as they would have been perfect. I think the A10 should offer full membership to B.U., but only if they bring back football. (NT) -- DamnRam, 10:01:52 11/10/04 Wed B.U. is not bringing back football. They didn't burn that bridge, they blew it up. Villanova is in the driver's seat. I'll bet the CAA makes a hard run at them. Delaware, W&M are great names, they can come to NY area every other year with Hofstra and go to Boston with N'eastern. Towson is 3 hours away. Makes more sense than staying in the A-10. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 12:44:22 11/10/04 Wed If Villanova were to join the CAA in football, it would be in that sport only since they won't leave the Big East for their other sports. That would open the door for another school, namely Fordham, to join the CAA in football only. This would create exposure in some nice markets for us(Virginia, Delaware, Boston, etc.) Not a bad option for us to have as we look ahead. (NT) -- Rambacker, 14:26:13 11/10/04 Wed Good option but Hofstra would block that move. They're not letting us into NY. As a football only member, they'd be able to block that. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 14:43:30 11/10/04 Wed No way would the CAA allow Hofstra to block us. Hofstra doesn't have the juice with the CAA. We'd be in the football league in a heartbeat. You can take that to the bank. (NT) -- Rambacker, 17:11:30 11/10/04 Wed Only if we brought the rest of the program. No way they would bring in an associate member over the wishes of a full member. You can take that to the bank! (NT) -- An Old Coach, 17:36:28 11/10/04 Wed Absolutely wrong. They'd take Fordham in football only in a heartbeat. Done deal. Over and out. Fordham locks up the NY market for them, Hofstra does not. This is about juice, and we would have it. End of story. It could be a realistic option for us. (NT) -- Rambacker, 18:01:18 11/10/04 Wed Basketball drives the bus in the CAA. They aren't going to sellout a full member. The AD's know 1-AA football for what it is, especially in NY. Virtually non-existent. A moot conversation though because there has yet to be one hint from the administration that any move is in the offing. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 18:49:12 11/10/04 Wed As the A-10 football league & other top 1-AA football leagues around the country have, the CAA will build it's football conference pragmatically, which means accepting name schools like Fordham & Villanova in football only to build a viable football conference. The prototype's already created for the CAA, they'll just follow what's already worked. This is a given & we'll have the opportunity to join if we want. As for where Fordham will go with football, just consider the move to the A-10 & we all know that when a great opportunity arises, things at Fordham can happen fast if we want them to. (NT) -- Rambacker, 20:50:20 11/10/04 Wed You're wrong about Hofstra and where the CAA's loyalties lie. It's irrelevant though. We're an A-10 shool. Football can't go to the CAA unless we jump leagues yet again for the entire program. If we did that we continue th proud Fordham tradition of being the laughing stock of college sports. If we play scholarship football we HAVE to play in the A-10. Now we get to play by Rambacker rules? Don't think so. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 07:20:33 11/11/04 Thu Why did the A-10 accept Villanova in football only? Because they wanted a viable 1-AA league. Same thing can happen with Fordham and the CAA. They'll take us in a heartbeat. It's a viable option for us as we move ahead. Scholarship 1-AA football is the way to go for us, and I'm looking forward to the future. (NT) -- Rambacker, 08:09:59 11/11/04 Thu Villanova was able to join the A-10 as a football-only member because the Big East doesn’t sponsor I-AA football. If the A-10 continues to sponsor I-AA scholarship football after the A-10/CAA split, Fordham would have no choice but to join the A-10 if it elevated its program to the scholarship level. The CAA wouldn’t be an option for Fordham football unless we joined the league for all sports. (NT) -- ramMan, 08:32:27 11/11/04 Thu The key question here is if the A-10 continues to sponsor 1-AA scholarship football under the A-10 banner. That remains to be seen. There are discussions ongoing about how this will shake out, but there will certainly be opportunities for Fordham to move up to scholarship 1-AA football if we so choose. (NT) -- Rambacker, 09:35:00 11/11/04 Thu Agreed. I’m curious to know if the move of Fordham football from the club level to Div. III in 1970 was faced with alumni opposition. How about the move from Div. III to Div. I-AA in 1989? If so, are they the same alums who now are opposed to a move from a need-based aid program to a scholarship program? (NT) -- ramMan, 10:15:46 11/11/04 Thu ramMan, I played and coached at Fordham when we were DIII. When we made the move up, one reason was because the NCAA was about to change the rules. Back then, you could be a DI school and play DIII football. Also, when it was originally presented, the PL was modeled after the Ivy League. It was going to be a 1AA non-schol league of very academically competitive, private schools. It has pretty much remained that way and that is why I favor staying here. I don't see the advantage of moving to a league comprised mainly of huge state universities that we have nothing in common with. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 11:04:09 11/11/04 Thu Fair enough, but if Villanova chooses to stay in the A-10 after the split, I think Fordham should at least explore the idea of moving up. I’ve gone on record many times on this board as favoring scholarships over need-based aid. There are two high school coaches in my family and both favor sending their star athletes to scholarship programs (Villanova, Hofstra, UMass, W&M, etc.) over need-based programs. (cont. below) (NT) -- ramMan, 11:47:24 11/11/04 Thu In fact, in the 30+ years my uncle has been a head coach, he’s never sent a star athlete to Fordham. He has nothing against Fordham, the university… he’d just rather see his kids get unconditional athletic scholarships. (Need-based aid can vary from year to year depending on a kid’s family financial situation. E.g., if a kid’s mom gets a job, aid can be cut… the same if dad gets a raise, promotion, higher-paying job, etc.) If Villanova and Fordham are recruiting one of my uncle’s athletes, he’s going to recommend the scholarship program to the kid and his parents. (NT) -- ramMan, 11:49:13 11/11/04 Thu (More) We can agree the need-based aid model was a total failure re Fordham men’s basketball. I fear it may not work for Fordham football unless the coach is a master recruiter (e.g., Clawson). Coach Foley did an excellent job in keeping Coach Clawson’s last recruiting class intact. Let’s hope he continues to have recruiting successes. (NT) -- ramMan, 12:29:51 11/11/04 Thu The PL was supposed to be a different animal though. It was set up so that the entire conference is on an even playing field. The goal, like the Ivy League is to recruit student athletes who fit a higher academic profile that these schools are supposed to have. I prefer this model. Once you go to scholarships, you have to recruit different kids. Not saying you won't get the brighter ones, I'm saying you have to make a lot of compromises on who you are bringing in. It is a different game. Not saying it's worse, it is different. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 12:38:54 11/11/04 Thu Thats the way it goes with recruiting. Some guys are great, others aren't. Penn, Princeton, Harvard, Lehigh and Colgate always seem to have coaches who can recruit without scholarships. I think our success over that past four years shows we can do it too. I don't think need based aid is a failure at all. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 12:43:26 11/11/04 Thu It's much easier to recruit without scholarships at Penn, Princeton, Harvard, etc. because those coaches can use the "panache" and name of those elite schools to sell. Fordham can't. It's a very, very difficult recruit for our coaches. We've had one football coach in 18 years that recruited well without scholarships and the verdict is still out on our current coach. It'll be an uneven ride if we stay in the PL - not a good thing. (NT) -- Rambacker, 13:59:56 11/11/04 Thu Guys who want to come to Fordham and play good football on the level we sponsor it will come. If they are coming just because they are getting a football scholarship, it isn't that important. We have and will continue to succeed in the PL. We need a level playing field with schedule and facilities and a coach who can recruit. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 17:47:38 11/11/04 Thu If you get a need-based aid offer to play football at Colgate, Lehigh, Penn, Harvard, or another Ivy school and Fordham, where are you going? Obviously you're not an NFL prospect so you go to Colgate or the Ivy school, with very few exceptions. We will need a phenomenal coach to beat those odds. Will every coach we have be phenomenal? Of course not. It'll be a long, bumpy ride and it's not worth the frustration of watching and experiencing it. Full scholarship 1-AA football is the way to go. That's why you don't get it. (NT) -- Rambacker, 22:13:34 11/11/04 Thu I get it just fine. According to your theory, scholarships will negate every factor it takes to have a winning program. Every coach we ever higher again should win every year, according to your statement. That's absurd. There are dozens of unsuccessful scholarship programs. Scholarships put you in a different league, arguably higher quality. They don't guaranteer any kind of success. Dream on. Doesn't sound like this president is going in that direction. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 08:17:30 11/12/04 Fri My prior post describes the essence of the problem with a need-based aid program. To have a consistently successful program in the long haul, we need full scholarship 1-AA football. This President has an open mind and is pragmatic, which is what counts. It won't happen overnight, but we'll see what the future brings. (NT) -- Rambacker, 09:24:17 11/12/04 Fri I also want to add that high schoolers want to brag about earning a “scholarship”. (At least that’s what the two high school football coaches in my family tell me.) There’s nothing “sexy” about getting a “need-based grant”. Grants are a tough sell to recruits. (NT) -- ramMan, 14:54:28 11/11/04 Thu I like to think it is a pretty good thing to say "I played football at Fordham". Maybe it's just me but I was always proud of that and I like to think that the Fordham degree I worked my rear end off for has served me pretty well, whether or not I was a scholarship athlete (which I wasn't). If someone could convince me it is better for Fordham to do this, I would love to agree. I think it is a great and special place that can stand on its own, with or without 1AA football or D1 athletics at all. NYU and Columbia didn't become world class institutions because they played in the A10. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 17:37:31 11/11/04 Thu If you're Harvard, Yale, Colgate or Lehigh you don't need sports to sell your school. If you're Fordham, you do. (NT) -- Rambacker, 22:16:09 11/11/04 Thu Fordham needs sports to sell itself? That is the dumbest thing you've ever wriiten and makes all of your over the top, pro Fordham, ranting totally hypoctritical. 150+ years of Fordham history and we need sports to sell this University? May as well put the "For Sale" sign up. (NT) -- Ramadama, 18:54:46 11/12/04 Fri Unfortunately we do. I wish we didn't need it, but it's true. We took a huge step back academically in the 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's. If Georgetown used sports successfully, why shouldn't we? If we run a clean program, which we will, it's all positive. (NT) -- Rambacker, 22:14:04 11/12/04 Fri Georgetown rose to prominence because, among other things, world renowned international affairs program, a top ten law school, being the pre-eminent University in DC, hospital/Lombardi cancer center, tremendous marketing and they wrapped it all up with a great run during the Ewing years. You think we're going to reach that level with a 1-AA football program? Wow, thank god you're not in charge. (NT) -- Ramadama, 10:56:46 11/13/04 Sat It's unfortunate you can't see the big picture. Fordham needs to use every element of a strong national marketing plan that they can to reach our stated goal. A small regional non-scholarship football league that's one step above Div. 3 doesn't cut it for us. We need to use our sports program to market the school in as many regions as we can, while building a consistent winning program. Glad you're not running a business or a university - both would be in big trouble if that were the case. (NT) -- Rambacker, 22:38:18 11/13/04 Sat You refuse to recognize what noted authorities including the Knight commission say about college sports. They said again last summer in a report that athletics play only a small role, if any, in sustained fundraising or enrollment success. How do you conveniently ignore this each time it is brought up? Georgetown is thought of as a great school because of their excellent academic programs, endowment and distinguished faculty. They haven't even been good in hoops for 10 years. That is how you build a great university, not on 1AA football. (NT) -- Ramadama, 08:00:32 11/14/04 Sun The Knight Commission has little credibility in my estimation. Having commissioned many surveys in my career, I know the results can be skewed in any direction one wants. But here's the key: if you don't think Georgetown's incredible jump in academic standing wasn't helped immensely by their great basketball teams of the late 70's and 80's, then I can't do much for you. Burying your head in the sand just begs for our administration to regress to a total lack of support for our athletic program. Is that good for Fordham? I don't think so. (NT) -- Rambacker, 11:55:52 11/14/04 Sun Of course you don't think they have credibility. They don't agree with you. What else is new? Keep living in your little Rambacker world. (NT) -- Ramadama, 19:26:41 11/14/04 Sun It's small thinkers like you that have held Fordham back for many decades. Thankfully you're now outnumbered by alums who live in the real world and know what Fordham needs to do to reach our goals. Let me guess - you teach high school and never played on a sports team in your life. (NT) -- Rambacker, 22:19:22 11/14/04 Sun A very mature response. To be expected. (NT) -- Ramadama, 12:08:38 11/15/04 Mon Please refer to your prior post for a "mature" response. When the arguments run out, the drivel begins. (NT) -- Rambacker, 15:00:13 11/15/04 Mon I've never speculated on your choice of career or any athletic involvement you may or may not have. I leave that wallowing in the mud to you. Let me know when you want a mature debate. (NT) -- Ramadama, 15:14:15 11/15/04 Mon We've already had a debate and you ran out of arguments, then resorted to immature comments. The debate ended when you did that. Next time try to come up with some better arguments. (NT) -- Rambacker, 22:15:16 11/15/04 Mon As usual, you have nothing. The debate ended when you make promouncements like the Knight Commission has no credibility. University presidents have seem to think it has credibility, but not the all knowing Rambacker. Amazing. (NT) -- Ramadama, 08:24:58 11/16/04 Tue It's time for you to do some homework and then move into the realm of reality. Many of those on the Knight Commission are also members of the NCAA Board of Directors. A conflict of interest? Of course it is. They've recommended some good things, but if you think the Knight Commission is the be all and end all for college athletic reform, your naivete is showing. (NT) -- Rambacker, 10:02:05 11/16/04 Tue As I said, the University president's seem to think it has credibility. Right now, that is the mechanism we have. Who are you to say it has no credibility...Oh that's right, you're Rambacker, all knowing, all seeing, voice of Fordham Athletics! (NT) -- Ramadama, 10:18:53 11/16/04 Tue You again resort to twisting my statements because you are struggling with the facts. I didn't say they had no credibility, but they are built to favor making the NCAA look good. They've recommended some baby steps that are positive. What makes you think the college presidents support the commission? That's a blanket statement that's untrue. Many college presidents are skeptical about the Knight Commission, at best. Again, facts are what win debates. Stretching the truth doesn't. (NT) -- Rambacker, 13:05:03 11/16/04 Tue "The Knight Commission has little credibility in my estimation."...Rambacker. If you don't mean what you write, don't write it. (NT) -- Ramadama, 15:37:12 11/16/04 Tue The truth twisting continues. "Little" does not mean "none". Time to bone up on your debate skills. (NT) -- Rambacker, 20:13:08 11/16/04 Tue A true Clinton answer. Kind of like trying to define "is". You said they have "little credibility" in your estimation. What exactly does that mean? By "little credibility," do you really mean they'll do a great job? Another point....you might take a look at the names associated with the Knight Commission before you say that many presidents are skeptical. Some of the great names in higher education are on the board. They've been very critical of the NCAA. What presidents do you know first hand who think they are NCAA apologists? (NT) -- Ramadama, 09:46:43 11/17/04 Wed Actually I'm glad the Knight Commission exists - at least there's a "watchdog" out there. But some of the members that are also on the NCAA Board have a vested interest in making the NCAA look good. By the way, talk about low blows! Comparing me to Clinton is like saying you thought I went to Iona! Ouch! (NT) -- Rambacker, 11:32:26 11/17/04 Wed A little strong. My apologies. You did back track, though. You said you felt they had "little credibility". Knight Commission is made up of pretty big names and very respected. Most "commissions" have dualing priorities and this one is no exception. They have said in a number of reports, and this has been backed up by other college associations, that there is no long term benefit in fundraising or enrollment to schools who have successful programs. They've documented this. Everyone isn't wrong here. (NT) -- Ramadama, 12:20:22 11/17/04 Wed One of the goals of the Knight Commission is to try to slow the "arms race" between major universities spending outrageous amounts of money on athletics. That alone puts the report on athletic success and it's correlation to fundraising/academic standing in question. You have a tendency to stretch facts, and I say that honestly and not as an insult. How can you say "everyone isn't wrong"? You and I both know there are many who don't believe the results of that report are accurate. And I'm one. (NT) -- Rambacker, 12:34:01 11/17/04 Wed That is a report that hs little to do with the "arms race". There are so many bigger issues. Do you think people like Fr. Hesburgh (sp?) are going to sign on to something that is rigged? Anyway, you avoided my issue. You did say they had "little credibility". They are actually very credible. What presidents do you know who have huge problems with their recommendations? (NT) -- Ramadama, 18:07:45 11/17/04 Wed Man, you've got to be kidding. The commission's charged with slowing the athletic "arms race" in colleges. It's on their agenda. That taints any report that relates to the problem. A study on the correlation between athletic success & fundraising/academic standing is directly related to that subject. How could it not be MORE related? Since when is Fr. Hesburgh a saint? Did the Vatican anoint him one? I'm rooting for the Knight Commission to effect positive change as much as anyone. But let's not have a Pollyanna belief that the Knight Commission isn't riddled with politics & competing agendas. (NT) -- Rambacker, 18:28:39 11/17/04 Wed Agree with much of what you say. What would there agenda be, to release a report saying that there isn't much connection between winning teams and fundraisiing and enrollment gains. Why would the Assoc. of University Business Officers, CASE and the Chronicle of Higher Ed say similar? A conspiracy? (NT) -- Ramadama, 11:21:26 11/18/04 Thu Full time, professional academics are generally at odds with those that support the use of winning athletic programs to enhance a college's stature academically. How many PHD's have you ever heard say "Let's build a powerhouse athletic program to help us sell our university to top students? 1 in a 1000 might say that. So does it not follow logically that any committee made up of professional academics would be predisposed to dismissing athletic success as a means to enhance the academic standing of a university? Absolutely. Hence my skepticism, which is well placed. (NT) -- Rambacker, 12:27:15 11/18/04 Thu Great Universities have great academics. Not too many ways to get there and athletics is just a very small avenue. Fordham has many, many unmet needs. In the big picture, i don't see 1AA football as a priority or a realistic way for us to get there. Also, I have addressed this to you beofre. If there is an alumni/student demand for 1AA scholarship football, why aren't people speaking up? (NT) -- Ramadama, 15:51:38 11/18/04 Thu Athletics is a "very small avenue" to promote Fordham as an institution? This is where we disagree. Athletics is actually a huge vehicle to market Fordham as an institution. How many academic symposiums are broadcast on television? Zero. How many college athletic contests are on television? Athletics, if used properly, can be a very powerful and effective means to get the word out about Fordham as an academic instution. Period. (NT) -- Rambacker, 16:54:06 11/18/04 Thu Billion dollar endowments, research centers, endowed faculty and chairs, great libraries, prize winning faculty and outstanding student facilities are what make Universities great. We lag in most of these while everyschool that is above Fordham in the rankings excels in all areas. These are the areas that make universities great, not 1-AA football. Those should be the priorities. (NT) -- Ramadama, 07:29:52 11/19/04 Fri They are the priorities at Fordham. And always will and should be. But to dismiss a successful, well-promoted athletic program as a vehicle to promote our university is both naive and a dismal mistake. (NT) -- Rambacker, 09:04:59 11/19/04 Fri It's good that they are. Since we are so far behind the schools we would like to believe are our peers, you have to have priorities. We don't have a real athletic center or student center, our scholarship endowment isn't great, landlocked campus to name a few. We're obviously making tremendous strides but you can only do so many things. I don't see 1AA football making the impact that a couple of fully endowed faculty chairs would have and one you get the chair, it is paid for forever. Football at that level will never make money and its taking our eye off the bigger needs. (NT) -- Ramadama, 10:25:15 11/19/04 Fri Perhaps you missed RamMan's posts showing that the current Fordham Football budget is already at the full scholarship level. We would have very small, incremental costs to go 1-AA full scholarship and the benefits would be considerable. Imagine Fordham playing Navy at Annapolis one year and Army at West Point the next, on a rotating basis. Playing Duke and Wake Forest, Vanderbilt & Tulane.Talk about a rallying point for alums and students! It's the way to go. (NT) -- Rambacker, 12:07:36 11/19/04 Fri Rallying points are great. A new student center, named business school and student scholarships are more productive. No evidence at all that alumni/students want that or a proposed schedule that you suggest is feasible. Priorities. (NT) -- Ramadama, 14:46:14 11/19/04 Fri The majority of posters on this board have expressed an interest in moving to 1-AA scholarship football. You make it sound like we can't have both an attractive 1-AA scholarship football program and a new student center, named business school and student scholarships. Not even close to the truth. With minimal additional costs to move up in football, it would be an easy move. We can have both, and should. And if you don't realize that we can play Army, Navy and other top academic schools in football if we move to scholarship 1-AA, then you've been out of the loop too long. (NT) -- Rambacker, 15:46:50 11/19/04 Fri The number of posters on this board is insignificant compared to the number of alums. We're the zealots. We need a facility and staffing to move up. The costs are more than you think. We need to get basketball on the right footing and get some kind of facility, first. You can't do it all. Currently, we have no relationship with any of the schools you mention. It can be built but it will take time. Navy and Army have relationships with the 1AA schools they play. No reason to think they would drop those just to play us. Finally, there is no student/alum outcry for this move. (NT) -- Ramadama, 17:05:58 11/19/04 Fri Agree basketball must be top priority. But I'd suggest we begin planning a capital campaign for athletics that includes ALL sports. The plan would include a convocations center(to be used for hoops, entertainment, symposia, etc), new recreation complex, legit football stadium, 400 meter track, etc. It's way overdue. If students/alums learn we can play Army, Navy, Duke, Tulane in football if we go scholarship, the response will be overwhelmingly positive. I think you know that, but are afraid to admit it. Setting up games with those schools is fairly easy, & a professional AD can get it done. (NT) -- Rambacker, 17:55:38 11/19/04 Fri They may well and as soon as we tart hearing the demand for it, it might be the way to go. Right now we have a hug gap to fill to get where we want to go and there are more important things to focus on. A new AD is going to have to reverse 50 years of lack of direction and inept management. He's going to have more than enough to do without propping up a program that has little internal or external support. Until I see the mandate for it, I can't agree. (NT) -- Ramadama, 08:01:15 11/20/04 Sat No one has even begun to sell it the students and alums. When that happens, there will be overwhelming support. Improvements in our Athletic program should be a PART of building the future Fordham, not separate from it. The strategy of viewing athletics as a separate(and low-priority entity has been used in the past and is a major reason why we have struggled. (NT) -- Rambacker, 09:31:30 11/20/04 Sat I don't think we can do everything you want at one time and do it all the right way. You have to get basketball straightened out, build an athletic facility and a recreation center. Get those done, see if we can build a market for basketball and then look at football. (NT) -- Ramadama, 12:17:10 11/20/04 Sat I agree we should prioritize, but in some cases efficiencies are found in planning capital/administrative programs as a single entity, not separately. Eg., we could save a lot of $ by tearing down McGinley/Lombardi/Rose Hill Gym, then replacing them with one interconnected complex to include a state of the art Campus Center/Convocations Center/Recreation Complex. That way we get 3 major benefits instead of 2, all as part of the same plan/construction project. If we connect luxury boxes in the Convocations Center with the football facility, we take care of football at the same time. (NT) -- Rambacker, 12:34:12 11/20/04 Sat That's fine, I'm not an engineer or a campus planner. If it makes sense to do it that way, great. Then we have to revive basketball and make sure there is a market for it that justifies upgrading football. I look at it as a 3-4 step process. I can't see commiting the resources otherwise. Too many other things to be done. Show we can get some some priorities addressed on the one side and then take a next step. Too easy to make a bad choice and you can't go back once it is done. (NT) -- Ramadama, 13:52:24 11/20/04 Sat I think basketball is on it's way to being competitive, possibly very competitive. I agree that this must be done in stages and that there are several priorities that should be addressed before athletics. But the student experience must be enhanced at Fordham to enhance our ranking, and soon. A new Campus Center, Recreation Complex and Convocations Center will take us a long way toward that end. We have renovated much of the Rose Hill campus and built and renovated all the dorms. It's time. (NT) -- Rambacker, 10:24:41 11/21/04 Sun Your description of what our schedule would look like is quite misleading. Here is a sample schedule that is a very realistic possibility if we move up to scholarship 1-AA football: Columbia, William and Mary, Villanova, Delaware, Richmond, URI, UMass, Lehigh/Colgate(rotate one each year), Army/Navy(rotate one each year), UNH, Maine. That is a much more attractive schedule than the one we play now. Fordham alums and students would jump all over it. Let's get it done! (NT) -- Rambacker, 11:50:35 11/11/04 Thu That's an insane schedule. Outside of Columbia, most of these games are a struggle. No one plays a schedule like that. No college team plays a schedule like this week after week. Then youwant to throw in a D1 game? This is why you don't get it. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 12:32:00 11/11/04 Thu It's a given that we play 1 or 2 cupcakes like Albany, etc. every season but the schools I listed, along with Delaware, VMI and some other attractive games, are examples of teams we can schedule if we go scholarship 1-AA football. Your arguments are down to a crawl at this point, you're being overwhelmed with all the strong arguments to make the move. Time to let it go, scholarship 1-AA is the way to go. (NT) -- Rambacker, 14:04:18 11/11/04 Thu I know it is hard for you to admit you're wrong but try. If the A-10 continues to have football and we decide to go to a scholarship program, we have to play there. The NCAA mandated this 8-9 years ago. There are just a handful of exceptions. Villanova is a free agent because the BE is a 1A league. Similarly would Georgetown go scholarship, they could cut there own deal. (NT) -- An Old Coach, 10:40:10 11/11/04 Thu The key here is if the A-10 continues to run a 1-AA football league under the A-10 banner. If not, we'll have two choices to move up. If they do, we'll have one choice. But we'll still be able to move up to scholarship 1-AA football no matter what happens there, so actually I'm right. (NT) -- Rambacker, 11:44:12 11/11/04 Thu What would the 2 choices be? (NT) -- JóDete93, 12:15:21 11/11/04 Thu If the A-10 decides not to sponsor/run a 1-AA scholarship football league in the future, the schools that are presently in it(Nova, URI, Richmond, etc) would be free to form their own conference. We could join them in a new league or join the CAA, those would be the two choices. Another possibility would be if the A-10 football league dissolves, the A-10 football schools could just merge into the CAA and form two divisions. We could join that as an option if that happens. (NT) -- Rambacker, 14:08:27 11/11/04 Thu Re: Actually, these days Princeton is a great example of how a great school and great FB facilities can be wasted by a poor coaching staff. If Fordham had the facilities and poured in the money Princeton did ($47 million for the ballpark and a fair amount in booster funds through the Princeton Football Ass'n, PU's equivalent of the Gridiron Club or Maroon Council), they would be a competitive major college 1-A program. It is a credit to Fordham that with a seemingly indifferent AD and spending a lot less money, they have become a solid D1-AA program. (NT) -- Go...'gate, 18:28:41 11/11/04 Thu