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The HarmyBoard Portal

HBX	Fanfic Archives	Entertainment	Friends	Reviews	Thank You	Harm Drive	LifeStyles	Sports	Close to Harm (DJE Board)

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The Quintessential HarmyBoarder

"I just miss HARM... that tall handsome all-American hero with the 40-Kilowatt smile, oh-so-hot-in-a-uniform bod,
sexy laugh, drown-in-me eyes, protect-me-forever arms, truth-n-justice heart, and cocky
but slightly clueless jet-jockey personality.... *SIGH* If it weren't for Harm, I wouldn't have been here since the beginning,
making friends, having fun, debating, speculating, etc." The Chief

Click here for HarmyBoard Photos

• Following up on my thread below, I thought I would expand on one of the discussion points. Several people seemed to think that the mess of Paraguay & season-9 fell squarely on AJ’s shoulders…that he alone, or in large part, bore responsibility for the “mess & fall-out of season-9,” & in particular, Harm’s fall-out. -- doc, trying this again..., 19:58:52 04/06/08 Sun
  
  Now, I don’t happen to necessarily agree with the above statement, because I think Harm held a HUGE responsibility for his own path of destruction. But that aside, I thought I’d pose the question of what AJ could’ve done differently? I’m going to copy & paste a few segments of the discussion below, specifically janlaw’s comments about AJ’s command, a Navy CO’s responsibilities in general, and likely disciplinary actions against Harm. (I hope she doesn’t mind…you know that whole, “Act now, seek permission later,” LOL!) A number of the participants in the discussion below thought AJ should’ve been held to a “higher standard”, in other words, the “standard” of a real military commanding officer, not just the standards of TPTB.
  
  janlaw said below of a military commanding officer: “A commanding officer is NOT his subordinates' friend, parent or anything similar. Far more than the "boss" (his civilian counterpart) a CO is first and foremost a leader. The Navy's core values - honor, courage, commitment - and with them the rest of an officer's most important attributes: integrity, the ability to lead, the ability to command respect - in my opinion, AJ lost sight of all these in S. 8-9.” In addition, mkim used the term “poor command climate” when describing AJ’s actions.
  
  So, my first question is: Did AJ lose control of his command & his people, thus creating a “poor command climate”?
  
  ***
  
  My next “topic” has to do with Harm’s issues prior to Paraguay. The statement was made that: “AJ lost sight of all these (the attributes above) in S. 8-9. Harm should have been disciplined in S.8 for his poor judgment that led to disobedience of orders, etc. AJ's failure to take appropriate action at that time, probably led to some of Harm's later problems.”
  
  Near as I can recall, Harm had several issues in the 1-2 years prior to Paraguay, the most serious of which was the Singer debacle. I’ve noted his infraction before, but I’ll state them again to identify when folks think AJ could’ve intervened to change the course of season-9.
  
  1. He threatened to resign to go find Sergei (S-6).
  
  2. He was brought up on an ethics violation for breaking attorney-client privilege, which was subsequently dismissed. Not because he didn’t break the attorney-client privilege, but because there was subjectively thought to be extenuating circumstances. (S-7, Redemption).
  
  3. He disobeyed orders to stay shipboard after Bud’s injury (S-8, ‘Critical Conditions’).
  
  4. He was removed from a case for inadequate representation/defense, then proceeded to stay ‘involved’ in the case despite the order dismissal (S-8, ‘In Thin Air’).
  
  5. He got involved in the investigation into Singer’s pregnancy, despite the fact that it was not his case. He investigated a colleague’s (& subordinate’s) personal life, attempted to bully same said subordinate into compliance, and used military personnel for his own personal endeavors (Manetti). (S-8, ‘When the Bough Breaks’).
  
  6. He was charged and tried for Singer’s murder. Through his own actions, he made himself appear guilty. As an officer of the court, he impeded an investigation and attempted conceal evidence. (S-8, ‘Ice Queen’ and ‘Meltdown’).
  
  According to janlaw the events surrounding & including the Singer mess SHOULD HAVE resulted in disciplinary action against Harm. Specifically, “Harm should have been disciplined - as in Flag mast - Article 15, UCMJ - in Season 8. … Disciplinary action would have been the end of Harm's career. Absolutely.”
  
  So, if AJ were to intervene in time to save Harm’s career, it appears as though he would’ve needed to PREVENT the events surrounding the Singer mess…not just the trial, but ALL of them. The fact that Harm was found innocent, wouldn’t have prevented him from being brought up on charges related to: involving military personnel in a personal investigation, undo command influence (both Manetti & Singer), and concealing evidence & interfering with an investigation related to a murder as an officer of the court.
  
  If you believe that AJ could’ve prevented Harm’s demise resulting from the Singer debacle, when & where should he have intervened? What should AJ have done to or for Harm? What difference do you think it would’ve made? And most importantly, would any of AJ’s interventions/disciplinary actions have prevented the Singer mess?
  
  REMEMBER: By the time the Singer mess occurs, Harm’s career is already over if we’re going to hold Harm to the same “rigid” standards as we wish to impose on the Admiral. Could AJ have prevented to the Singer debacle? And keeping Sergei out of the country doesn’t count, LOL! AJ wouldn’t have had any control over Sergei, and thus the relationship between Sergei & Singer wouldn’t have been changed. Taking into account Harm’s drive once he makes up his mind (i.e. Singer was carrying a Rabb heir), I’m not sure AJ could’ve prevented that mess…Harm was pretty target-fixated & tenacious when it came to that obsession.
  
  So, for those of you who blame the Admiral, and for those of you who don't, what could he have done differently to prevent Harm’s demise & the events of season-9? I’m all “ears,” so to speak…convince me! And feel free to discuss any & all portions of this thread, the previous, and the Paraguay mess…
  

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  • I don't know if there is anything AJ could have done to prevent Harm resigning to go after Mac. Someone had to do something, because it was apparent that AJ was just going to let her die and do nothing. Inside I'm way over... -- NanaSue, 21:22:13 04/06/08 Sun
    • But if things had played out the way they “should have” after the Singer mess, Harm wouldn’t have even been in the Navy anymore. He would’ve been discharged, if not incarcerated on charges. So there would’ve been no need/opportunity for Harm to seek AJ’s permission to leave, resign, or comeback expecting a job. Of course, Harm would’ve also lost his inside track to info (i.e. AJ). But… -- doc, 21:41:25 04/06/08 Sun
      • doc, you are right. It's not easy to find a preventive solution. But I think AJ should have given Harm some warning if AJ was starting to feel that Harm wasn't growing up enough. And he didn't. So how was Harm supposed to know? He may have been a shocked as I was that AJ was willing to shrug his shoulders at the probability of Mac's death. And Harm was obviously willing to give up JAG to save her, because he did resign. But AJ processing the resignation made him petty. Because he didn't do it for the benefit of JAG - he did it because he was ticked off at Harm. (NT) -- NanaSue, 15:19:23 04/07/08 Mon
  • I think everything that happened to Harm was of Harm's doing. I think that AJ played a part in that the previous times that he threatened to resign they overlooked it and found a way for him not to....but, he (Harm) had to know that eventually his resignation would be followed up on. I feel that when he wanted to play the "hero", he wanted to use his commission as "bait" if you will. Inside.... -- tamk3, 23:08:14 04/06/08 Sun
    • Wow! Maybe they should have hung Harm up by his thumbs and beat him with a wet noodle? (NT) -- Shell..........my head is spinning over this thread....lol, 23:47:53 04/06/08 Sun
      • Shell, I agree the thread goes to a ridiculous end, and you can use the “wet noodle” on me! I was just trying to make the point that if we’re going to apply “realistic” military standards to one character, we have to apply them to all. One of our beloved characters can’t escape all the ramifications of his actions, just so we can burden them upon another. If you want to understand the point of this thread, you have to go down & read the previous…and finding fault with Harm was never the original intent. (NT) -- doc, 07:32:36 04/07/08 Mon
        • Harm’s infraction was used to justify why AJ processed Harm’s resignation which meant we compared Harm’s behavior to real military. (inside) -- Sunset, 20:51:24 04/07/08 Mon
  • At the interview at Boston College, DJE said they often bent the rules in JAG. He pointed out that it was a TV show that was supposed to be entertaining. They weren't making a training film. Harm was the star. Harm was the hero. Anything he did was allright with me! (NT) -- USSEssex, 23:44:53 04/06/08 Sun
  • I loved this show - for 10 years I stuck it out, sometimes laughing, sometines rolling my eyes. As a career naval officer - a JAG Corps commander when the show began and a captain when it ended, I sometimes cringed, but I always kept coming back - it was one of the few shows since MASH to portray the military in an overall favorable light. I was a die hard shipper from early on, and each episode was generally the talk of my office, whereever I was stationed, the next working day! It was tremendous fun. A few comments on doc's first question - did AJ lose control of his command? Inside. -- janlaw, 00:25:57 04/07/08 Mon
    • I can really appreciate the points you bring out, janlaw, re: reel-life J AG vs. real-life JAG as I reflect similarly on how those of us on the floors of hospitals, in operating rooms, and in ERs related to shows like St. Elsewhere, ER, and probably now, House, although I'm not pounding the wards anymore. We laughed and often cringed, but there we were, week after week, watching, commenting, and just enjoying all the drama from the 'shipper' perspectives with all the beautiful stars. inside -- mj, 06:35:27 04/07/08 Mon
      • Well mj, the real drama you must have experienced in a hospital, would have been more powerful than anything on tv. That's why they never run out of medical and crime dramas because they fascinate us so. How come they never make dramas about the areas I've worked in...banking, academics, and road construction?...LOL. Oh and I forgot to mention the shoe shop I worked in when I was 16. Now THERE was drama! (NT) -- Cece (mj, do you live in the UK? If so, you'd love House with Hugh Laurie., 10:41:46 04/07/08 Mon
      • Yes, Cece, I do live in the UK and all areas you have worked in -- banking, academics, and road construction -- would make unbelievable racy and fascinating dramas, especially if based on what goes down here in the UK!!!! After living here a couple years, I'd have to say, road construction would probably have the most gripping storylines of corruption and intrigue. LOL. As for Hugh Laurie -- I've been a fanatic of his since his Blackadder, Jeeves and Wooster and Fry and Laurie days! inside. -- mj, 11:46:57 04/07/08 Mon
        • mj, (inside) -- Cece, 15:00:45 04/07/08 Mon
  • First of all, I don’t feel that my previous analyze or criticism of AJ in season 9 meant that I blamed AJ totally and he was the only one responsible for Harm’s fall-out. I just expected that he would act differently regarding Mac’s missing & Harm’s resignation based on the AJ that I saw in previous seasons. (inside) -- Sunset, 01:51:34 04/07/08 Mon
    • Sunset, I know that JAG was a TV show played for drama. If everything was played out by “real” military standards with “order & discipline,” it would’ve been a fairly boring show. After all, “real” JAG attorneys don’t do any of the exciting stunts & theatrics that H&M got to do on the show. (inside) -- doc, 07:27:17 04/07/08 Mon
      • Do you know who had final say-so over the stories submitted by the writers on the show? It seems to me that they had a new crew in the final couple of seasons and I wonder if they were ever avid fans of the show prior to getting the "gig" as writers. Was it just a paycheck to them or did they love the characters as much as we did and respect them....or was it just a meal ticket to them? And who would have the final say on the storyline and quality of that particular script? (NT) -- Irishrainy, 10:42:09 04/07/08 Mon
      • Hey, Doc, I just want to say that I never had a major problem with the last few seasons of JAG, either. In fact, one of my fave eps that I re-watch every now and again is "Unknown Soldier" a very Vukovic heavy ep. I never had a problem with with General Cresswell either. And for awhile I avioded JAG related loops and message boards because all the griping and complaining about what was going on with the show really reduced MY enjoyment of it. Just wanted to let you know you aren't alone. And I really appreciate the lively discussions. (NT) -- JAGNikJen, 10:47:24 04/07/08 Mon
      • Doc, about the discussion direction went haywire and didn’t follow your intention (inside) -- Sunset, 20:16:24 04/07/08 Mon
        • Sunset, it's okay, don't worry about it... -- doc, 20:31:40 04/07/08 Mon
    • Sunset, your thoughts made sense to me. I was just going to say that I didn't blame AJ or Harm, I blame TPTB. I like your response much better. :-) (NT) -- SeaBeth, 11:59:18 04/07/08 Mon
  • For Pete's sake, I never said that I thought AJ was soley responsible, I feel as though my thoughts posted below are being exaggerated or turned completely around. If youre going to quote me, I'd appreciate it if you'd quote it all. INSIDE: -- mkim, 12:45:07 04/07/08 Mon
  • A small thing (inside) -- lska, 14:59:02 04/07/08 Mon
    • One small additional comment re:Rabb heir. -- Karen, 14:47:12 04/08/08 Tue
      • You know... -- lska, 18:16:36 04/08/08 Tue

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• Super Fourteen Week Nine Draw -- Katiegirl, 17:54:47 04/08/08 Tue
  Draw is on the sports board come on over and have some fun. Posting is available until Fiday 0430 EST
  

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• Update on Zapper on the Lifestyles Board. -- Cece, 15:34:29 04/08/08 Tue
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• It's that time again, folks ... -- Pixie (), 18:23:09 04/07/08 Mon
  
  It's time to launch a new ficathon. This time it's "He Said, She Said," and all of the stories will be based on quotes from television shows (other than JAG). Prompt submission is open to everybody, and we need plenty of ideas, so please take a minute to wander over to Fic Recon and check it out.
  

  Last edited by author: Mon April 07, 2008 18:24:24   Edited 1 time.
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• Super Fourteen Results Week Eight -- Katiegirl, 18:04:13 04/07/08 Mon
  Results are up on the sports board. Draw for next weekend will be up tomorrow. Come and have some fun.
  

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• How well did Harm understand women? -- Shell, 13:47:20 04/05/08 Sat
  As much as any man does? Was he extra clueless? Was he ever really in a close intimate relationship with a woman? Do you think that he had problems showing Mac or any woman how he felt?
  

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  • I think Harm understood women, just enough to make him dangerous. LOL! He understood them well enough to head off the 'relationship' questions. I think he tried to understand them,at times, but there seemed to be alot of missed signals, and that was when people got hurt. His relationship with Annie, Jordan, Renee and Mac he seemed to have good intentions and ended up sabotaging himself.JMHO. (NT) -- mkim As aggrivating as it was....he was just so CUTE when he was clueless., 15:56:49 04/05/08 Sat
  • I think Harm understood women enough for his own satisfaction - both in and out of the bedroom. And he knew he was lacking. But I don't think he ever tried hard to understand them, because I don't think he ever thought it was important to him. Even Mac told him he hadn't been paying attention when he asked for directions (or something like that). Harm considered women as an extracurricular activity, and other than that he didn't worry about them much. I think that's why he was known as "clueless Harm". LOL!! (NT) -- NanaSue...poor Harm didn't have a clue about the fairer sex, 20:31:01 04/05/08 Sat
    • both in and .... of the bedroom he was lacking????? NS, byte your tongue!!!!! No way!!!!! (NT) -- stunned judi, 04:40:21 04/06/08 Sun
      • Well...the women in his life didnt seem to think the bedroom was a problem. (smirk) (NT) -- mkim, 13:13:23 04/06/08 Sun
        • Well, DUH!!!!!!! (NT) -- judi waving to mkim, 13:55:35 04/06/08 Sun
          • Well I certainly doubt that he was lacking in the bedroom....they alkl seemed pretty darn happy at first....but eventually sex without love or any kind of emotional bond is ... lacking.....!! Slama-bama without the emotional/love thing going on...is just that... slama-bama....and a bit empty... (NT) -- Lola, 10:43:46 04/07/08 Mon
            • And knowing that he wanted someone else....loved someone else.....pretty tough (NT) -- Lola, 10:46:29 04/07/08 Mon
      • As telented as he may - or may not - have been in the bedroom, it wasn't enough to keep any one woman in his life for long. That's what I meant to say.... (NT) -- NanaSue, 15:42:34 04/06/08 Sun
        • You have to wonder if Mac would have stuck around as long as she did... if the mystery was gone. LOL. (NT) -- lska, 16:38:45 04/06/08 Sun
  • Mostly, I think Harm understood exactly what he was doing. Occasionally, he was clueless, and sometimes he was intentionally obtuse. (NT) -- doc, 20:37:10 04/05/08 Sat
  • I think he understood them and he knew exactly what they wanted until deeper feelings and issues came into the picture. Then he had a hard time understanding what they wanted and doing what he needed to do or wanted to do (at least in Mac's case) (NT) -- HarmMacLove, 20:44:13 04/05/08 Sat
  • My supposition is that thru school, the Academy, and in his early jet jock years he didn't have to understand women - they were attracted to hsm, he knew it, he enjoyed the sex and the attention. If he and Diane were romantically involved, it wasn't exclusive. Iif she was just a close friend, I assume there was some common ground and some level of understanding. Inside. -- janlaw, 21:30:25 04/05/08 Sat
    • True enough, jan. It's not like he ever understood, Kate(from Season One). He didnt have to.(grin) (NT) -- mkim, 21:58:59 04/05/08 Sat
    • I agree. He didn't have to understand to have them running to him. Well said. (NT) -- HarmMacLove, 23:35:39 04/05/08 Sat
      • I wonder if his view of women was influenced by his Mother's actions? He never gave up on his Father and as a child he may have blamed his Mother for "giving up" on him. Could that have in some way colored his relationships with women throughout his life? (NT) -- Shell, 23:51:02 04/06/08 Sun
        • I've wondered about that too. He seemed to love her very much, but didnt seem to be able to talk to her about the deeper things in his life.(hmmmm..that sounds familiar) I dont know if he blamed her as a man, but he must have been angry as a teen, given that he ran away to Vietnam when he was 16 to find him. (NT) -- mkim, 23:56:27 04/06/08 Sun
  • i always felt that Harm, for being such an educated and bright, albeit drop-dead gorgeous man, was a bit rudimentary when it came to his understanding AND relating to women. He EITHER saw them as frineds and was appropriately jocular or professional or comforting or noble or whatever the occasion called for OR he thought of them as lovers (casual), whereby he showed more his flirtatious, chauvinistic, sometimes condescending, evasive, often wimpy and clueless side (doing this probably unconsciously in his unreadiness to committ to anyone). Then, Mac came along ...inside -- mj, 06:08:03 04/07/08 Mon
  • He didn't care to get emotionally tied to any woman to totally 'understand' them because he was so in love with Mac. When it came time to 'go get her' he was flustered because it was the 'real thing' to him. (NT) -- BT, 09:21:47 04/07/08 Mon
  • I don't think Harm was clueless...Why did he date all those women and not commit?? cause he could...He was a great looking guy who was not ready to commit....The problem was that the women found out that he was already emotionally involved with Mac... (NT) -- Lola., 10:36:12 04/07/08 Mon

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• HAPPY BIRTHDAY Canj !!!!! -- --, 01:25:23 04/05/08 Sat
  
  

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  • Happy Birthday Canj! One of your favorite moments just for your special day. (NT) -- Theresa, 01:26:31 04/05/08 Sat
  • Wow Can J - Is that a fabulous birthday gift or what - To dreams come true!! Happy Harmy Day (NT) -- chris k, 01:30:34 04/05/08 Sat
  • Manny Happy Returns!!! Enjoy your Harmy Day! (NT) -- jo, 03:04:57 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Harmy Day Canj! (NT) -- HarmMacLove, 03:08:00 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Harmy Day Canj. Enjoy your day. (NT) -- Katiegirl, 03:26:44 04/05/08 Sat
  • Many Happy Returns CanJ...hope you have a wonderful day...love your collage! (NT) -- MargoUK, 04:24:12 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday canj!! And a happy Harmyday (NT) -- Maya, 05:50:53 04/05/08 Sat
  • Wow theresa love the collage Happy birthday can J. (NT) -- Bev uk, 07:06:45 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Harmy Day, Canj!!! Hope you have a great birthday! (NT) -- doc, 07:26:48 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday, Canj!! Ennjoy all your time with Harm and hope all your wishes come true. (NT) -- jenks, 07:37:35 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday Canj, here's to promises and dreams - hope you have a wonderful day. (NT) -- usmgrad, 08:20:29 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy birthday and also a wonderful year! (NT) -- janlaw, 08:27:22 04/05/08 Sat
  • Hope you have a very Happy and Harmy Birthday, and many, many more, Canj! (NT) -- Lee - This is a great collage, Theresa. I love it!, 09:24:34 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday Canj (NT) -- Dani R, 09:25:19 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy B-day. Have a fun one and enjoy the collage (NT) -- CAZ, 09:36:13 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday. Have a great one. (NT) -- Hope, 09:55:22 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy birthday, canj! Hope it's a great one! (NT) -- JAG Junkie (Ronda)--great collage Theresa!, 10:20:04 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday Canj!! I hope you have a great day. (NT) -- mkim, 10:21:17 04/05/08 Sat
  • Ohhh Canj, our Harmy, Harmy nut! Have a great birthday! (NT) -- Cece, 10:58:57 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday, Canj. Enjoy your day with Harm. (NT) -- jagfannj, 11:44:59 04/05/08 Sat
  • Wishing you a very Happy Birthday, and fun with Harm. (NT) -- Sunny, 12:02:45 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday Canj, Harm and Mac together, wonderful birthday, don't you think? (NT) -- GRa, 12:21:04 04/05/08 Sat
  • YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME! I am getting ready for a big regatta today. this 62 year old will be racing head to head in double knock out 1000 meter races all day. Harm will be right behind me in the boat! I am sure he will have perfect stamina and rhythm! (NT) -- can j - Who sends BIG HUGS to Theresa!, 12:38:00 04/05/08 Sat
    • Now how did I know you'd be racing somewhere today? (NT) -- mkim, 20:10:06 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy birthday, Canj. Go Navy! Good luck in your regatta. (NT) -- Deemus, 12:40:22 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday and Regatta, my friend! What wonderful Harms Theresa made for you! (NT) -- judy52sa, 12:44:57 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday Can j and good luck in your regatta - you go girl! LOL (NT) -- with love from your fellow Canuck-friend, Gibson, 12:58:13 04/05/08 Sat
    • Happy HarmyDay Can J! (NT) -- Shell, 13:31:08 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy HarmyDay, Canj!!!! (NT) -- judi, 13:34:00 04/05/08 Sat
  • Have a great day Canj! (NT) -- tamk3, 13:55:26 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Harmy Birthday, canj! Have a great day racing! (NT) -- SeaBeth - waving to a fellow NW Wench, 14:00:29 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday Canj! Have a great day sweating with Harm! (NT) -- Sunset, 16:24:07 04/05/08 Sat
  • hay , have a great Birthday. (NT) -- Linda R, 16:35:32 04/05/08 Sat
  • Have a wonderful and happy birthday, canj! Harm will make it special! (NT) -- Peggy C., 16:37:16 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday, Canj! On a day like this you should win the race! (NT) -- Cookie, 17:14:30 04/05/08 Sat
  • Hope you had a great Harmy Birthday, Canj! (NT) -- Irishrainy, 23:37:28 04/05/08 Sat
  • Happy Birthday, Canj. I hope it is wonderful. Enjoy Harm! (NT) -- navybrat (barb), 14:14:49 04/06/08 Sun
  • Happy Birthday, can j! (NT) -- gigi, 16:41:28 04/06/08 Sun
  • Happy Belated Birthday Canj, I hope all your Birthday wishes come true. (NT) -- Cokie, 01:05:59 04/07/08 Mon
  • Happy Belated birthday, canj -- better late than never! What a nice 'shippery' collage for you -- enjoy it!!! (NT) -- mj, 05:32:50 04/07/08 Mon

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• In court this morning when Harm said under his breath about Mac's addiction, WOW, I thought she was going deck him. It seemed much worse than when I first viewed this ep. What was he thinking? She was pissed at him!!!! -- Boston Tiger, 11:44:28 04/04/08 Fri
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  • As well she should have been! I would have decked him! Mac has better control than I have. (NT) -- Theresa, 13:15:11 04/04/08 Fri
    • If we're going to get deep about it, I think that scene was to show how bitter Harm still was and to have him realize that he'd crossed the line, pay attention to his own behavior and begin to try to improve things. The apology after his comment, at the end of the episode, was the first time he'd touched her in many many months. And the looks they gave each other, as they called the truce told the tale. They smiled at each other, and there was a measure of understanding that had been missing for far too long. Though I wouldn't have forgiven him so easily, I'm glad that Mac did. (NT) -- Theresa, 15:54:49 04/04/08 Fri
      • Harm said in Shifting Sand that Mac finally accepted the fact that he’s unchangeable. His comment about Mac’s addiction in this episode was cruel but his apology showed Mac that indeed, he could change! (NT) -- Sunset, 12:18:54 04/06/08 Sun
      • I think Mac accepting his apology so easily had something to do with her PTSD. She was so brittle during this part of the series. I think she would have shown a little more spirit usually. (NT) -- lska, 13:00:21 04/06/08 Sun
      • I agree with Iska. I don't think Mac really accepted Harm's apology, but she was used to them. It was apparent that was all she was going to get, and she had to work with him, so what could she do? (NT) -- NanaSue, 21:24:24 04/06/08 Sun
  • As much as we hated to see it, the arguments or snide remarks had you on the edge of our seats because we couldn't wait to see what the other would come back with. (NT) -- tamk3, 14:27:19 04/04/08 Fri
  • Whatever anyone thinks about the character changes and the reasons for them after Paraguay, I think there was a new level of cruelty in the show. Whatever the reasons for it were, and I really don't care, there was an anger in the JAG people that was new. Maybe the big guy was having a bad time in his personal life or something, but the good-natured teasing that I was used to disappeared as though there was no love lost between any of the JAG crew. It was hard to watch the first time, and I sure won't watch it again. (NT) -- NanaSue, 14:52:17 04/04/08 Fri
    • My personal opinion is that The Don was taking his anger at DJE over his contract , at JMJ for not wanting another contract, out on everyone. Frankly, only the fanfic made S 9 bearable! (NT) -- janlaw, 23:24:02 04/04/08 Fri
  • Could you tell me the name of that ep? I would like to see it again but I can't remember the name of it. Thanks. (NT) -- tjp/Terre, 16:58:48 04/04/08 Fri
    • "Pulse Rate" (NT) -- doc, 18:07:09 04/04/08 Fri
  • He was pissed because she was throwing the book at the kid so he said what he knew would hurt her and piss her off. She should've slugged him for making such a comment, I know I would've. (NT) -- HarmMacLove, 20:47:20 04/05/08 Sat

  ---

• JAG Actresses In Other Shows -- Jagcharmed2, 20:54:29 04/01/08 Tue
  Last Sun. I caught the opening credits of "St. Elsewhere". 2 of the actresses on that show were Cynthis Sikes who played the Adm's girlfriend the doctor, & the actress Christina Pickles who played Harms's mom. In this ep I also saw the woman judge on JAG Cmdr. Helfman I think her real last name is Savidge, she looked the same just younger of course. the same w/Ms Sikes but Christina Pickles doesn't look anything like her at all, imho. I didn't know that these 3 were in that show. I think this was in the 80's.
  

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  • I knew Christina Pickles (Harm's mom) was in St. Elsewhere, but knew I knew the other actresses from somewhere and now I know where, thanks! And wasn't Mark Harmon in St. Elsewhere? (NT) -- mj, 10:05:40 04/02/08 Wed
    • I think the actress (Jennifer Savidge)who portrayed Judge Helfman in JAG, also portrayed a nurse on St Elsewhere. I used to love that show!!! (NT) -- mkim, 15:58:57 04/02/08 Wed
    • Yes --- Harmon played a plastic surgeon ... I think! (NT) -- MichelleB, 17:34:58 04/02/08 Wed
      • Yes, MichelleB -- I was an intern then working like a dog and we used to laugh that we never met any doctors who looked like him!!!! (Hey, none of us looked like "Mac' either -- fair play!!! lol) (NT) -- mj, 17:43:04 04/02/08 Wed
        • Doc - we supposedly have an ENT doctor at our hospital who is extremely handsome - so much so that mothers all over the Valley hope their kids NEED to have a tonsillectomy (that's how the joke goes at least!). Of course, he's one of the worst dictators we have so, needless to say, I'm not one of his fans. (NT) -- Irishrainy, 21:22:46 04/02/08 Wed
          • LOL --you know, Irishrainy, after a few years, I moved out of clinical practice and went into hard-core research. Now, I tell you -- the doctors on the floors were ALL 'Mark Harmons' and 'Harms' compared to the 'lab rats' I had to look at all day!!!! BUT, please know, all these gentlemen I worked with had gorgeous hearts and souls, which, in the end, is the MOST appealing and sexy, isn't it?! (NT) -- mj (who ended up marrying someone COMPLETELY non-medical!), 03:44:43 04/03/08 Thu
            • Mj, I remember Mark Harmon played the first prime time character to contract AIDS, in St. Elsewhere. He was a straight guy who was really promiscuous. I loved MH and I LOVED St. Elsewhere. (NT) -- Cece., 01:06:10 04/06/08 Sun
              • Yes, you're darn right, Cece, I DO recall that vividly now and it was in the era when AIDS was really still so new and thought of as 'the gay man's disease' and then, St. Elsewhere came out with that story line. I STILL love MH even though I haven't gotten into NCIS. I wish someone would put MH and DJE together in something -- a double whammy of hunkdom! LOL IMO, these 2 guys are examples of the 'thinking woman's' ultimate man. (NT) -- mj, 19:55:31 04/06/08 Sun

  ---

• Okay, in between working a bunch of every other night calls, I’ve been able to catch a number of JAG episodes in the morning. I think it’s been interesting to re-watch a number of season-9 episodes. Yes, the dynamics between the characters was a different. They were all trying to find their way back, but the “core” of the characters we all loved is still there. -- doc, 09:29:35 04/04/08 Fri
  
  Harm & Mac are having the most trouble finding their way back. They bicker, but push-come-to-shove, they’re both there for each other. Harm is hurt, and Mac has her own issues related to Paraguay…we’ve all discussed & will continue to discuss their interactions. I'll leave them there for now…
  
  It’s the other characters in the show that I’ve paid more attention to in the last week. Despite our insistence to the contrary, our favorite “supporting” characters are still there buried underneath the “rubble” (?). I don’t think they’re the “pod” people that folks want to make them out to be:
  
  Bud is still Bud; he’s just matured & more settled. He’s becoming his own man, equal on par to Harm & Mac, and over time, I could see him becoming a commanding officer himself.
  
  Sturgis seems to be the one most lost & different. In today’s episode, “Answered Prayer,” I loved seeing Sturgis interact with his father & Varese. Both of these people have this calming effect to Sturgis’ stubborn need for perfection. Clearly, Sturgis isn’t “fixed” overnight, because he’s still looking for perfection in everyone BUT himself well into season-10. He’s still “BECOMING” to pick up on the last line of song quoted by Varese.
  
  Jen? Well, I find her kind of annoying in season-9. I found myself missing Tiner this week!
  
  Finally, I think the Admiral has taken the most criticism for being a “pod” person. I still think in “Shifting Sands” that he was acting as CO & mentor. Harm had to “suffer” the consequences of his actions and willful disregard of the Admiral’s orders. That’s not the scene I want to discuss. If you watched the episodes this week, you’ve noticed that AJ’s been under intense pressure by the new SecNav. Nelson seemed to play politics, but he & AJ understood & respected each other. The new SecNav doesn’t seem to have that respect on any level, although he said he dismissed Lindsey’s report, I don’t think he did at all. The new SecNev played politics, tried to pressure & cully favor, intimidate, interfere, etc. He placed AJ in some very difficult positions, as AJ tried to maintain “truth & justice” while still maintaining respect. I think AJ was always playing catch-up & trying to defend his command & his people to this SecNav. By the end, AJ was just tired…
  
  What I also noticed this week was that when Harm came back to JAG, AJ really tried to extend an olive branch. Despite his denial to the contrary, AJ really missed Harm while he was gone…that in many ways accounts for his behavior. I think AJ felt he made the right decision at the time when he didn’t take Harm back…Harm did need to understand that there were consequences to his actions, but that said, AJ wasn’t happy about it. After making the comment in “BITS” about Peter Pan, I don’t think AJ held anything against Harm. I also think AJ became increasingly weary over the course of season-9. His one bright spot was Meredith. In the Christmas episode today, Jen asks AJ of he’s happy. AJ says, “For the first time in years.” I suspect that statement was very true, and I also think that Meredith’s betrayal hurt him deeply, and almost beyond repair. I’d be very surprised if AJ EVER trusted/loved someone to that degree again. That doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t “date” or find “companionship,” but I doubt he “let go” again. I think that’s so sad. AJ’s life was the military. He forfeited everything else to that end, and in the end when that was gone, what did he have left? He was distant from his daughter, didn’t appear to have close friends or family, and his career was over. Maybe that was why he pushed Harm, AJ didn’t want Harm to end up like him…and bottom line, that was where Harm was headed! For the life of me, I don’t understand why TPTB couldn’t let AJ & Meredith be happy…it didn’t make sense to destroy the happiness of both characters. After 9 years of fighting with various politicians & good service, didn’t AJ deserve a better end?
  
  Just my opinion…
  

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  • You make a lot of valid points. (inside) -- Dorothy in Houston, 09:43:13 04/04/08 Fri
    • Doc, I could never have said it better! You have expressed what i have felt all along and spent far too much time agonizing over! Thank you for being my voice and expressing my thoughts so well! (NT) -- can j, 12:45:05 04/05/08 Sat
  • doc, you know what they say about ‘great minds…’: I was actually pondering asking questions along the same lines. Rewatching BITS made me think about the changes all the characters went through, the ones I kept liking and the ones who annoyed the hell out of me. I agree, they were not pod people, the circumstances explain a lot the strange behaviours… (inside) -- jo, 12:35:55 04/04/08 Fri
  • While I agree with you about AJ's justifiable frustration with Harm and the all the circumstances surrounding it. It all went uncharacteristically too far. AJ was a seasoned officer, but he took considerable risks when he came to 'his people' and his family. Harm was an observer of those risks and in some cases took some risks himself out of loyalty to AJ. So, I do understand the pressures, his callousness and inability to put himself in Harm's place was out of charcter...thus, very 'pod' in my estimation. (NT) -- mkim, 13:38:46 04/04/08 Fri
    • But that’s just the point, I think AJ did put himself in Harm’s place…in fact, he had been in Harm’s place years before, and he didn’t like how his life turned out. AJ was alone with only his career to keep him company. I think he realized Harm was going nowhere but trouble. (inside) -- doc, 14:19:04 04/04/08 Fri
      • You are missing my point. You can number all of Harm screw up's if you liike, as far as I'm concerned AJ set the tone years before. He basically told the SecNav to try and stop him, when he went after Harm(after finding out Webb used him as bait to draw out an arms dealer) He's given the official order, then told them to go above and beyond because it was the right thing to do. I get that AJ was frustrated, I'm just saying, the total disconnect was unnecessary. It was cruel, to the character and to the fans. (NT) -- mkim He bent the rules plenty to achieve his goals, then all of a sudden it wasnt okay anymore, 17:06:21 04/04/08 Fri
        • I dont think the AJ of 'Shifting Sands' put himself in Harms shoes at all. I dont really know who this AJ was. One that forgot all the times he bent the rules and remember all the times Harm did. (NT) -- mkim Sorry you arent going to convince me, there is no justification for the double standard, 17:09:30 04/04/08 Fri
          • So how far was AJ supposed to let him go? Until Harm killed himself &/or others? He was already almost there! At some point AJ had to say that’s enough. Allowing a behavior a time or two, doesn’t imply it’s condoned forever. By the point of Paraguay, Harm was in a very self-destructive mode, as evidenced by the string of events leading up to it. (inside) -- doc, I'm all for defending Harm, but not at the expense of EVERYONE else., 18:03:17 04/04/08 Fri
            • Respectfully, It wasn't AJ's job to be a parent to Harm. AJ's job was to run JAG and make decisions for JAG's benefit. Is there anyone who really believes Harm changed significantly in the time he was gone? Finding love because of a teenage girl doesn't mean he solved his problems with his life, so what changes occurred in Harm that would make him be a benefit to JAG, as opposed to before his "firing"? I admit that being fired can be a life-changing experience, but hiring the person back kind of dilutes the effect, don't you think? (NT) -- NanaSue, 18:47:26 04/04/08 Fri
              • I know AJ wasn't his parent...I was waiting for someone to say that. My point was, the person "in charge" has to be able to draw a line & enforce it. I just used the parent/boss/superior officer as an example. Just because you allow someone to cross it once, doesn’t imply permission to “erase” it for all times. And sometimes, escalating behavior requires unfortunate & unwanted consequences. As for Harm’s behavior, I think he was different when he came back…eventually (smile). (inside) -- doc, 19:11:00 04/04/08 Fri
                • I see your points. I guess I just never believed Harm was as immature as others thought he was. (NT) -- NanaSue, 13:53:05 04/05/08 Sat
                • ITA, Doc. Becoming a parent finally made Harm grow up. I know some people on this board didn't like the whole Mattie story arc, but in reality she was essential to Harm's emotional growth. Without her, Harm and Mac would pry still be dancing. (NT) -- Irishrainy, 23:42:11 04/05/08 Sat
                • I agree that by the middle of S10 his behavior was different - but it wasn't when AJ hired him back. AJ couldn't have foreseen the future changes in Harm, so what change had Harm made when AJ rehired him? At that time, Harm hadn't made a move to be a foster parent, so it couldn't be Mattie. Which leads me to think AJ processed Harm's resignation in a snit, and later regretted that decision and rehired him. Not because of Harm, but because of JAG's needs. Which is the reason Harm should never have been let go in the first place. (NT) -- NanaSue, 15:47:53 04/06/08 Sun
                  • I agree with this assessment completely. I don’t think AJ was trying to teach Harm a lesson when he didn’t take him back. He didn’t have any idea what Harm was going to do, and his “go wrestle alligators” remark made it clear he didn’t care what Harm did. I think he was acting emotionally, just what he accused Harm of doing. More inside…. -- SeaBeth, 18:07:48 04/06/08 Sun
      • I agree that TBTP should give AJ some happiness at the end. What’s the point of having Meredith betraying him? My thoughts on AJ’s behavior (inside) -- Sunset, 19:42:23 04/04/08 Fri
        • Well said, Sunset. The AJ we'd like to have seen only exists in fanfiction. I still think the earlier episodes made us think that a situation like we had at the beginning of Season 9 couldnt happen. Maybe thats why it blindsided alot of people. (NT) -- mkim, 23:06:08 04/04/08 Fri
      • At the time of "Shifting Sands", AJ still HAD Meredith in his life. They were engaged, and planning their wedding. So he wasn't bitter about that to the point that it would affected his treatment of Harm. I've *never* understood AJ's putting Harm's papers through when he kept Mac's in his desk. I don't think I've ever seen anything that would change my mind in that AJ was just *not* the same AJ that we'd grown to admire. I didn't see what he did as "tough love' or anything like that. Esp when he went back and asked Harm to come back to JAG not too long afterward. (NT) -- nancyeddy, 19:58:41 04/04/08 Fri
        • Harm and Mac left under completely different circumstances. Mac left to pursue civilian legal work. Harm asked for permission to go to Paraguay, was denied, quit so he go anyway, and then walked in expecting to be welcomed back with open arms. AJ could be magnanimous in the first circumstances, but he would have felt like a doormat in the second. Harm isn't the only one with pride. (NT) -- lska, 21:40:57 04/04/08 Fri
    • ICAM -- Harm was riding for a fall even before Paraguay, and AJ saw it and decided he had to take away the safety net this time. (NT) -- lska, 15:39:28 04/04/08 Fri
      • Oops -- that belongs beneath doc's post! (NT) -- lska, 15:41:00 04/04/08 Fri
      • Okay.....if AJ had no intention of allowing him back in....how could this be a lesson??....So Harm wont p**s off his boss....the head alligator wrestler???? (NT) -- mkim This AJ wanted him out of his sight. Period.....pod AJ., 17:17:05 04/04/08 Fri
        • It wasn't just a lesson about how to work with AJ, it was a life lesson about how far you can push a situation before you find its breaking point. Harm wanted to act like a maverick, and he got away with it for years. And each time, the act of bending the rules got bigger and bigger. AJ and Harm were not equals. If AJ hadn't reined him in after this one, he would have had no authority left. He had to do it. When your boss tells you not to do something, you can't quit, do that thing, and then expect to be taken back. -- lska, 18:13:56 04/04/08 Fri
          • I agree...Harm was a maverick, AJ knew it from the get go...and to reinforce that fact, the first ep AJ was ever in, 'Smoked' he sent Harm Meg and Krennick to do a little paramilitary mission, didnt he? Sabatage a plane, if I remember right. Not their mission, but AJ made it plain that he expected more. How about Game of Go?? It was an investigation, but AJ told them 'off the record' to recover the body of a Marine, a part of the mission they werent told not to involve themselves in. If there was to be a 'lesson' then, why didnt they 'both' learn it??? (NT) -- mkim I agree, it was the writers, and they went too far and were untrue to both characters. Harm and AJ., 22:03:42 04/04/08 Fri
            • Honestly, I'm not familiar any more with the details of the early seasons. :/ I'll take your word for it. But by season 9, it had been a long time since JAG was that show and since AJ showed that side of him. Instead, we got the AJ who didn't bend the rules to let both Harm and Mac stay with Bud, and other stuff like that. (And BTW, I do have a problem with the way he seemed to hang Mac out to dry, just not with his dealings with Harm.) (NT) -- lska, 15:28:23 04/05/08 Sat
              • I think that's one of the things that floored me the most. Just looking at the face of it, Mac would have been tortured, perhaps to death if Harm hadnt inteveined. It just all seemed so unfair, and so out of character for the JAG crew as we knew them, dysfunctional or not.(smirk) (NT) -- mkim, 19:34:04 04/05/08 Sat
  • As usual, doc, you make a lot of valid points. I hated sanctimonious Sturgis (like he was perfect and everyone else flawed). And Jen just made me miss Tiner more. But most of all, AJ deserved happiness, and was denied it. After all the personal sacrifices he'd made in his life, he deserved it more than anyone else. I wasn't that fond of Meredith, but they didn't have to turn her into a sex addict. (NT) -- NanaSue, 15:02:58 04/04/08 Fri
  • Such interesting and thoguhtful comments! My thoughts on doc's specific question: "didn't AJ deserve a better end?" Inside. -- janlaw, 09:59:38 04/05/08 Sat
    • You go jan! I'm totally with you on AJ's professional responsibility. What is the phrase I'm looking for.....poor command climate???? Havent alot of CO's lost their commands based on that assessment.(grin) (NT) -- mkim, 11:58:33 04/05/08 Sat
      • So, let me get this straight? From the end of season-8 through the Paraguay arc & its consequences, the only one who deserved to be reprimanded/fired/retired was AJ??? I would include in this timeline: the Singer fiasco, Lindsey’s report, Ice Queen/Meltdown, Paraguay, Harm resigning, the aftermath, etc. AJ, and AJ alone, was responsible for all these events & their disastrous after effects? -- doc, please forgive mistakes, I'm post call, 14:38:43 04/05/08 Sat
        • Doc, you missed that I said Harm should have been disciplined - as in Flag mast - Article 15, UCMJ - in Season 8. If he had been, a lot of his future troubles might have been avoided - and maybe some of AJ's too. Gotta love these discussions! I think through my views and those of all of you. Sometimes I rethink my opinions, sometimes not; it doesn't matter. The fun is in the discussing. (NT) -- janlaw, 14:49:21 04/05/08 Sat
          • janlaw, I knew you were saying that Harm would be disciplined. I was trying to reiterate and enforce that point. (NT) -- doc, and I love these discussions as well, varied opinions & all, 15:04:49 04/05/08 Sat
            • Actually, I responded too quickly and more in the context of "real life in the Navy" versus canon/'reel' life on TV. Disciplinary action would have been the end of Harm's career. Absolutely. However, there was appropriate action AJ could and should have taken at several points in the beginning of S. 8 and during S. 8 that would have achieved the needed results. Unfortunately, AJ had lost control of his command/lost his focus as a leader (in my opinion). (NT) -- janlaw, 15:53:36 04/05/08 Sat
        • I really appreciate you and the others making comments to start discussions. Disagreements and different viewpoints are unavoidable and that’s what make discussions interesting. I would also like to point out that analyzing or criticizing AJ’s behavior is not the same as saying that Harm’s not responsible for his actions and should not face consequences of his behavior. (NT) -- Sunset, 16:07:44 04/05/08 Sat
          • Sunset, I don't mind the friendly back & forth of these discussions. I think that's when we all glean new perspectives & insights. I've never shied away from a discussion or exchange of ideas, and I do believe everyone is entitled to share their own view. And no one is ever totally right...or wrong. That's what makes life and JAG interesting! (NT) -- doc, 17:31:30 04/05/08 Sat
            • I absolutely agree that no one is ever totally right or wrong and thank you for starting the discussion. I can spend the whole day thinking and talking about JAG. I would like to add a little bit more of my thoughts on AJ & Harm’s relationship (inside) -- Sunset, 22:44:10 04/05/08 Sat
              • Exactly Sunset. I swear that is what I thought when AJ retired. It didnt have to be a long drawn out discussion, but it would have been great if there had been some resolution to that relationship...instead AJ just walked out into the night. It made his leaving the show that much sadder. (NT) -- mkim, 13:11:24 04/06/08 Sun
    • "A commanding officer is NOT his subordinates' friend, parent or anything similar." Janlaw, I'm curious -- do you think AJ crossed those lines in earlier seasons? (NT) -- lska, 14:27:16 04/05/08 Sat
      • My opinion - yes. (short answer). Maybe this can be the next post/thread. (NT) -- janlaw, popping in at the 'puter in between the Saturday routine., 14:51:27 04/05/08 Sat
        • That would be interesting. It seems to me from your comments that the family dynamic that we all liked about JAG was dysfunctional in and of itself. (NT) -- lska, 17:06:48 04/05/08 Sat
    • I dont think you hate Harm, I just disagree with you strongly nd I said so, if I'm the one youre referring to as 'shaking my finger in your face'. Discussion will truly be squelched if I cant disagree with you and say why. I never called it inappropriate...I just think youre wrong and if I'm happy when someone validates my opinion(as in jan) I said so, thats my privelidge as a poster on this board. (NT) -- mkim You may not like the way this discussion went, but you have to admit...It was LIVELY!!, 15:19:08 04/05/08 Sat

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• How many months was Harm out of the Navy after Paraguay? I seem to remember Bud & Mac saying they hadn't seen or heard from Harm in 5-6 months in the episode 'BITS'. Today in 'The Boast', Mac tell Harm he wants to go up against the Admiral in a case, because the Admiral kept him out of the Navy for 3 months. So how long was Harm out of the Navy? I'm confused, and the episode timeline isn't any help, since the Paraguay episodes span the summer of reruns. -- doc, 08:46:52 04/03/08 Thu
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  • If you were writing a FF, I don't think most would argue with anything from 3-6 months. I prefer to think that after two weeks of silence Mac called him every week that she wasn't off in the boonies. So, say about five months for the 17 phone calls to work. I don't think she would have let herself call more than once a week. (NT) -- CM>^.,.^<, 09:37:45 04/03/08 Thu
    • Mac said in a following episode that the Admiral kept Harm out of the Navy for 3 months. (NT) -- Joand D, 10:41:55 04/03/08 Thu
  • Mac said she'd left 17 messages in 5 months. Not sure where the "out of the Navy for three months" came from since he was out almost immediately after he turned in his resignation. Maybe it's one of those things where the writers didn't pay attention again, or maybe CB flubbed the line. (NT) -- Theresa, 10:29:36 04/03/08 Thu
  • Mac said in a following episode that the Admiral kept Harm out of the Navy for 3 months. (NT) -- Joan D, 10:40:21 04/03/08 Thu
  • Didn't Harm say something about giving six months to the CIA only to be canned? (NT) -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 13:32:08 04/03/08 Thu
  • Okay, watched 'BITS' between loads of laundry. It was a real "sacrifice". LOL! When Bud asks Mac when was the last time she talked to Harm, she says a couple months. When Harm is fired by his CIA boss, Harm tells him he flew 37 missions in 6 months. When Mac shows up at his door, she says, she left 17 messages in 5 months. And finally, Catherine's mother says, she hadn't seen him in 5 months & then she sees him on television. I guess that means he was gone at least 5 months, and probably 6. I'll assume the 3 months comment in 'The Boast' was an error on the part of the writers. (NT) -- doc, 14:32:48 04/03/08 Thu
  • Does anyone else think that the "17 messages" was hyperbole? I'm sure she left more than a handful, but do we really think that she counted? (NT) -- lska, 15:39:46 04/03/08 Thu
    • yeah- I really think she counted - an even number - and a grossly exagerated number such as a million, a hundred, at least fifty - would have been a hyperbole. I think 17 was a precise count from a woman who knew the time to the very second and who still cared and was worried. (NT) -- chris k, 15:47:05 04/03/08 Thu
      • I agree. If she'd said she left a dozen messages, or 20 messages, or even 15, then yeah, that would have been hyperbole. But for her to specifically say 17, I think she was counting. And I think the writers intended us to think that. (NT) -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 18:21:26 04/03/08 Thu
        • And if I remember the way she said it - kind of "I really can't believe I called so many times, and I'm embarrassed to admit it, but yeah, it was 17 times." (NT) -- The Chief, 09:16:01 04/04/08 Fri
  • Harm's time period in the CIA -- highplainswoman, 17:50:24 04/03/08 Thu
  • Here's my interpretation- From May when they crashed to Nov when Harm was back at JAG was 6 months. I think the writers who wrote the script that Mac said 3 months was at that moment thinking Sept Airing to Nove airing & counted 3 months & forgot about the 3 summer months. Then the next writer who picked 5 months did fast math from May to Oct when Harm agreed to go back & came up with 5. Lastly whoever said 6 months was actually counting from May when he left JAG till Nov when he returned - so there you have it - take your pick!! lol- (NT) -- chris k - since Christmas is always christmas - I'd use the actual air date of May for my beginning time line & Oct/November for my ending time line., 18:23:12 04/03/08 Thu
  • Maybe they meant it was 3 months since he had officially been separated from the Navy. For instance, maybe he had some leave time on the books, etc., which meant he hadn't officially been separated until August or so. (NT) -- Irishrainy, 02:06:35 04/04/08 Fri
  • I thought Harm mentioned 6 months in a conversation.!! (NT) -- Michelle UK, 11:09:37 04/04/08 Fri
  • As I recall, the date stamps in the first episodes of S 9 are important and tell the time lapse. Even though Shifting Sands was first viewed October 2003, I believe the date stamp was June 2003. (NT) -- janlaw, 21:36:58 04/05/08 Sat

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• Episode of the Week – Secrets -- Araninda, 00:13:59 04/04/08 Fri
  Our EOTW is the second episode of Season 2, "Secrets,” which first aired on January 10, 1997. An escaped military prisoner, Private (formerly Cpl) Jason Magida, claiming his court-martial for espionage was a frame-up, takes AJ, Mac and Bud hostage in AJ’s office and insists they retry him. But investigating the man's claims is a problem, as all records of the case have been sealed by the CIA. Harm acts as intermediary and, with the help of Clayton Webb, uncovers new information about the original trial while keeping a SEAL team from killing Magida.
  
  1) IMO, the storyline of this episode was complicated to follow. What’s your opinion of this episode and how do you rate it?
  
  2) Harm is the action superhero of this episode, taking charge of the situation and saving Magida from the SEAL team leader. He seems almost too action driven in this episode and doesn’t express much concern for the hostages. Do you agree or disagree? And do you enjoy these dramatic action episodes better than the emotional character-driven episodes?
  
  3) An early scene in this episode is Harm and Mac bantering about Mac’s messy office. Was Mac a neat and tidy type of person or was she more of an organized, but messy type of person? What traits did Harm have in terms of his personal surroundings, messy or neat?
  
  4) I absolutely do not understand AJ’s actions in this episode. He’s a former SEAL, trained to immobilize an enemy, yet he does not even try to disarm Magida. He also keeps telling Magida to shoot him (AJ) and orders Harm not to retrieve Magida’s file, an action which Harm disobeys. Can you justify AJ’s actions in this episode?
  
  5) We learn more about Clayton Webb in this episode, and we are introduced to his mother as they ballroom dance. How would you describe Webb’s relationship with his mother?
  
  6) This is the only episode in which Bud mentions "his sister, Winnie”. Would you have liked to have seen Bud with a sister? In thinking about the episodes in which the Roberts family appeared, would Bud’s storylines been better or worse with a sister instead of a younger brother?
  
  Please post your thoughts.
  

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  • In first just for a change. I give this episode a 3.5, maybe a 4 because there was lots of Harm. I found the storyline harder to follow than usual and wonder if this was just a way to introduce Osbourne for later in the series, so that we would already know that he and AJ had history. -- Katiegirl, 01:39:51 04/04/08 Fri
  • I'll say more later, but just off the top of my head I'll answer #5. Webb's relationship with his mother. Can anyone say Norman Bates? *SHUDDER* (NT) -- Theresa, 02:13:48 04/04/08 Fri
  • ... -- Maggy, 03:59:38 04/04/08 Fri
    • Maggy, good thoughts. Thanks for posting. (NT) -- Araninda, 09:34:01 04/04/08 Fri
  • (NT) -- Hope, 09:40:58 04/04/08 Fri
  • 1) This is just one of those eps that you (okay, *I*) watch and enjoy when it airs... (Inside) -- JAGNikJen, 09:42:30 04/04/08 Fri
    • I totally agree with JAGNikJen about 'Action Harm' He did take some risks but, IMHO, they were measured risks...and for Harm to do nothing would have made a dull episode...and that was the point of Harm....he was driven by honor, duty and SACRIFICE. And sacrifice sometimes requires going out on a limb...and taking a risk.(I'm sure AJ counted on Harm doing just that, he said as much) (NT) -- mkim dang! this was a serious answer....sorry(smirk), 11:26:13 04/04/08 Fri
      • Ok, playing Devil's Advocate here. . .the JAG security guy wanted to handle it himself, and Harm was the one who ordered that the SEAL team be brought in. So didn't Harm take too much risk with the hostages? (NT) -- Araninda. . .and no, this is not Harm bashing, it's just discussion of why Harm reacted in the way he did., 12:09:50 04/04/08 Fri
        • Okay, for the sake of discussion...what should he have done??? (NT) -- mkim, 13:35:10 04/04/08 Fri
  • For more screen caps from Secrets Click Here (NT) -- Hope, 09:42:45 04/04/08 Fri
  • I liked this episode probably rate it a 4.5 - I liked the things we learned - Mac's sense of time. AJs willingness to accept if he's wrong -though it may take him a while, and the paper pushing agent Webb. I didn't like the Webb in the action of season 9 or even season 7 - I preferred the go to man who couldn't shoot straight. I never really gave Webbs mother any thought, though I think she would have been a pill of a MIL. I think as Marines and Navy Harm and Mac were both neat - look at their apartments- I just think Mac had a different sense of organization when it came to her office. (NT) -- chris k, 10:37:57 04/04/08 Fri
    • oh yeah - winnie- I think I would have prefferred Winnie to Mikey- or maybe at least both- but I was just never fond of Bud's family when they showed up- and in season ten I was ready to string Mikey up from the nearest yardarm, he was such an annoying woos. (NT) -- chris k, 10:41:20 04/04/08 Fri
      • LOL! I agree about Winnie vs Mikey. Who knew that the little smart aleck pizza delivery kid from 'Ghost Ship' would end up morphing into ...well...what we had to put up with in Season 10. He was okay for B stories in season 6 abd 7....but we definitely had too much Mikey in that last season. (NT) -- mkim, 11:32:42 04/04/08 Fri
  • I only have a minute, hopefully I can comment more later. What I liked best about this episode was the beginning scene with Harm and Mac. While it was very early in their partnership, there already was chemistry. Loved the banter between them in her office and Mac’s retort to Harm regarding the file, “Be sure to put it back where you found it.” I really doubt that Mac was that unorganized, however I think tptb were building her character as somewhat opposite from Harm. Messy – neat freak; carnivore – herbivore, etc. And you know what they say about opposites and attraction! (NT) -- lisa, 11:25:04 04/04/08 Fri
    • I loved that first scene too. I think this was only the second episode they did together and I could see the chemistry, big time! I didnt think Mac's messy office meant that she wasnt squared away...after all...she knew where the file was...thats why she told Harm to put the file back where he found it....so she could find it, later. (NT) -- mkim who has much sympathy for this type of 'filing' system.(smile), 11:37:23 04/04/08 Fri
  • I suppose I’ll give it a 3.75 ;-). I think TPTB still didn’t know very well where they were going with the show, or it was just the transition from season 1, mainly action oriented, to season 2, which made room for the courtroom scenes and the emotional, character driven episodes. The story line is a bit complicated, but not impossible to follow, at far as I recall. I liked the episode because it dealt with an interesting situation, mainly for Mac, Bud and AJ who found themselves hostages, it gave us insight into their respective characters and how they acted under pressure. (inside) -- jo, 11:36:42 04/04/08 Fri
    • Interesting point about Mac's personal and professional life. (NT) -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 19:37:02 04/04/08 Fri
  • I rate this one a 4.75. It wasnt on the top of my list, but I liked this one. The storyline was complicated, but I seem to recall that we had a case of espionage in the courts, involving the US and Israel. I thought the point was, it doesnt matter whether a government is an ally of ours or not, state secrets are state secrets and if you violate your oath, or are uspected of it, you are in deep ...dodo. INSIDE for the rest: -- mkim I liked seeing Osbourne cowering in front of the guy that he'd tried to kill, just moments before., 11:55:54 04/04/08 Fri
    • ALSO Osbourne was not a SEAL..he worked for the CIA or an offshoot of the Company,(Remember, Webb knew all about his guy) I think, similar to the crew that Palmer worked for, remember the fictional DSD from 'Impact'? (NT) -- mkim, 12:04:01 04/04/08 Fri
      • Ok, now I'm confused. Was Osbourne actually called to defuse the situation, or did he just show up?. . .Maybe I'd better recheck my DVD this evening. (NT) -- Araninda, 12:30:10 04/04/08 Fri
        • He did head up the SWAT team...but in the end, it turned out that he was not what he seemed, didnt mean to cause a problem, but he wasnt acting as a SEAL, not to my understanding, anyway. I just thought that since, later in the season, when he popped up in the middle of 'With Intent to Die'? Didnt AJ ask Webb if a 'sweeper' would eventually catch up with Osbourne??? (NT) -- mkim, 13:31:50 04/04/08 Fri
  • I guess I give this one a 4. It wasn't too bad, but it's definitely not one of my favorites. 2) I like a good mix between the action eps, the courtroom eps, the emotional eps, etc. Inside -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 20:42:48 04/04/08 Fri
  • Secrets -- HarmMacLove, 00:34:09 04/05/08 Sat
    • I think it was a good ep. You would think that A.J. would have done something more to take charge of the situation. But maybe he felt that there was something to Migita's claims and wanted to see where things went? What did I think of Webb and his Mommy? Just another reason I had such a hard time buying Webb as a love interest for Mac. Yuck! (NT) -- Shell, 13:40:52 04/05/08 Sat
  • This was at least a 4. I didn't find the story that hard to follow as I'll go inside for the rest. -- Christa, 20:13:04 04/05/08 Sat

  ---

• Hello, I will like to have this photograph in larger... -- Jane, 15:23:24 04/03/08 Thu
  Do you know where I could find it?
  

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  • If you click on Hope's fabulous JAG site with great screencaps, you'll find this pic from Answered Prayers, and many more. Click here. (NT) -- Cece, 18:04:58 04/03/08 Thu
    • I thought rather of the photograph of promo, but I think that will go perfectly. Thank you very much. (NT) -- Jane, 01:52:32 04/04/08 Fri

  ---

• HAPPY BIRTHDAY AnnaBanana!!!! -- --, 02:04:49 04/03/08 Thu
  
  

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  • Happy Birthday AnnaBanana! Sending Harmy smiles your way. (NT) -- Theresa, 02:05:39 04/03/08 Thu
  • How can your birthday NOT be Happy with a name like AnnaBanana, LOL. And with Harm's smiling eyes looking at you ALL DAY LONG -- happy day!! (NT) -- mj, 03:34:39 04/03/08 Thu
  • Many Happy Returns...hope you have a great day...love those smiles!! (NT) -- MargoUK, 03:54:11 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday AnnaBanana. Hope you enjoy those smiles all day long. (NT) -- Katiegirl, 07:10:29 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy birthday AnnaBanana hope you have a wonderful Harmy day with lots of sunshines to go with all those smiles. (NT) -- usmgrad, 07:35:10 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy birthday AnnaBanana! Harm sure is happy to be spending the day with you! (NT) -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 08:00:12 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday! Hope you have a great year! (NT) -- janlaw, 08:06:49 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday and enjoy your day. (NT) -- Dani R, 08:26:55 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday! Hope you have a wonderful day!! (NT) -- lisa, 08:38:13 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Harmy Day!! (NT) -- chris k, 08:41:12 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday! Hope you have a wonderful day!! (NT) -- lisa, 08:41:50 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Harmy Day! (NT) -- doc, 08:45:08 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday AnnaBanana, I am sure Harm'smile will put a light to this day. (NT) -- GRa, 08:56:16 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday Sweetie, and many, many more. You and Harm have a good time, ya hear? (NT) -- CM>^.,.^<, 09:34:00 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy birthday, and enjoy the smiles! (NT) -- cbw, 10:46:52 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday, AnnaBanana. Enjoy those Harmy smiles. I'm sure a day with Harm will put a smile on your face as well (NT) -- jagfannj, 11:06:22 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday (NT) -- Hope, 11:08:11 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday! No one can top those grins! (NT) -- judy52sa, 13:48:35 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy smiley birthday anna banana enjoy your day love the collage. (NT) -- Bev uk, 14:24:18 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday, Anna banana! Harm is smiling just for you! (NT) -- Peggy C., 14:30:03 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy smiley birthday anna banana enjoy your day love the collage. (NT) -- Bev uk, 14:44:19 04/03/08 Thu
  • happy birthday!!!! (NT) -- daisy, 15:50:28 04/03/08 Thu
  • Hope you have a very Happy and Harmy Birthday and many, many more! Nothing lights up a day like Harm's smile. (NT) -- Lee, 16:26:37 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Harmy Birthday Annabanana what a mouthful LOL enjoy your time with Harm love the collage. (NT) -- Michelle UK, 18:05:32 04/03/08 Thu
  • A very happy birthday to you, AnnaBanana! You must be smilin' to see Harm smilin' at you! (NT) -- Deemus, 18:32:31 04/03/08 Thu
  • Have a great birthday, AnnaBanana! Enjoy your day with Harm! (NT) -- navybrat (barb), 19:21:39 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday, AnnaBanana! (NT) -- gigi, 20:11:55 04/03/08 Thu
  • Happy Birthday! I hope you had a great day!!! (NT) -- mkim, 23:18:14 04/03/08 Thu

  ---

• Thank goodness the board is finally back!!! Now on with the discussion… -- doc, who's been waiting very IMPATIENTLY all day, 21:53:55 03/31/08 Mon
  
  First off, when Harm meets with Kershaw, the Director basically gives him the same speech as AJ about being irresponsible & loose with his actions. Kershaw basically tells Harm he screwed up, even though Harm saved the CIA mission in Paraguay. So why does Harm want to work for him? I know, I know, the CIA let him fly, plus he needed a job, but it seemed incongruent that Harm would forgive the CIA for placing him (them) in that Paraguay mess, yet he doesn’t forgive his friends at JAG. I guess I just answered my own question, we tend to forgive strangers their faults, more than we do family & friends…i.e., family & friends can hurt us far more.
  
  Then there’s Catherine Gale. I know I’ve watched that final scene in Kershaw’s office several time before, but this was the first time I really noticed CG’s look. She was eyeing Harm like a piece of meat, and not just beef, but the best, most juicy piece of prized “Grade A, Prime-cut” Filet Mignon. By the end of “Pas De Duex,” Harm & CG are “friendly” in a casual acquaintance sort of way, but by no means “close”. By the end of this episode, Harm, Webb, & CG are clearly “getting along & friendly,” at least as colleagues. By the time “BITS” rolls around, Harm & CG are “close enough” for Catherine to “stop by” without invitation, calling ahead, seeking permission, or raising question. I don’t know about you, but I don’t casually “drop by” my colleagues’ homes unannounced.
  
  I guess, this episode raises questions in my mind about just how “close” Harm & CG actually were. I know some folks wondered about Harm’s expression when a very pregnant Catherine walked into his apartment in “BITS”. I, for one, never thought there was even a chance that Harm was the father of CG’s baby. I don’t think they “hooked up” before Paraguay, because he was “target-fixed” on finding Mac. But watching the episode today, I could actually envision them getting together at the end of “Shifting Sands”. That would explain Harm’s shocked look when she showed up again in “BITS”. And the time frame between when he left for Paraguay & the episode “Shifting Sands” isn’t that different…the stage of pregnancy would be very close to the same, hence Harm’s look. That said, if they had hooked up around this time, Catherine would’ve only been 5-6 months pregnant in “BITS”. Clearly in “BITS” she was farther along than 5-6 months. Based on her “tummy,” I would guess she was at least 7 months, and mostly like 8 months. So, I could see Harm not pressing the issue when Catherine told him the EDC (due date). What do you think? Did Harm & Catherine hook up after Paraguay? It would explain their complete ease in each other’s presence in “BITS,” and might explain Harm’s proposal that they give a real relationship a try.
  
  Lastly, why in the world did Harm forgive Webb? By the end of “Shifting Sands” when Harm, Webb & Catherine are talking in the hospital, Harm appears to be friendly with Webb. Why??? Webb was the sole cause for Mac going to Paraguay. He was responsible for Harm having to resign his commission to ride to the rescue. In Harm’s eyes, Webb made a play for Mac, and thus was responsible for the “never”. So why does Harm forgive Webb his transgressions, but cuts all ties with everyone at JAG? He walks away from Mac without a word, and refuses to return a phone call. I know, Mac uttered the word “NEVER”, which Harm interpreted as “never ever in a million years, even when hell freezes over”. Kind of like, when Harm said “not yet” in Sydney, and Mac heard “no”. All that aside, I can’t figure out why Harm so easily forgave Webb...I certainly never did!
  

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  • Argh, this should've started with the following question: Why did Harm forgive the CIA after Paraguay? I was watching “Shifting Sands” this morning, & I don’t understand why Harm forgave the CIA? (NT) -- doc, who should give up & go to bed!, 21:56:44 03/31/08 Mon
  • All good questions with really no good answers. TPTB didn't know the answers themselves. For some reason, we were asked to suspend all reason when it came to CG and the CIA and Webb. (NT) -- Dorothy in Houston, 22:04:47 03/31/08 Mon
  • I don't really understand the question... (inside) -- lska, 22:49:35 03/31/08 Mon
    • I don’t think Harm could let it go if he thought there was any chance he was the father. As fixated as he was on Singer carrying a Rabb, there’s no way he would walk away from Catherine if he thought the baby was his. That’s why I think the timing of her pregnancy was important. (inside) -- doc, 23:12:30 03/31/08 Mon
      • I guess I just thought that they had an understanding, and he took her at her word when she said it wasn't his. After all, they weren't in a relationship, and obviously they hadn't spoken for months, so there wasn't any messy emotional entanglement like with Mac. What reason would Harm have to think she was lying? With Singer, it was in her established personality to keep something like that from him. -- lska, 01:01:38 04/01/08 Tue
        • I like your last statement, Iska. I too wish that Harm and AJ had had a real talk in H&F to kind of "mend fences." (NT) -- Lee, 01:27:57 04/01/08 Tue
        • I disagree. I think CG could lie without blinking an eye. Didn't she do that in the first episode we met her? She was used to it in her job, so it wouldn't bother her at all. Singer lied to protect herself, CG lied because she felt she had to for her job. (NT) -- NanaSue, 17:12:58 04/01/08 Tue
          • I can't remember -- was that the Angel Shark episode? Clearly, she wasn't above lying to her mother on her deathbed, so you're right about that. But she wasn't the same kind of person as Singer, who had all those hidden agendas and schemes. CG could be very open. She let Harm into her dysfunctional family life during PdD, which told him more than he ever knew about Singer in how many seasons? I really think that Harm took her at her word about this, and had no reason not to. (And I agree with the poster down below that he wouldn't be a good judge of belly size.) ;) YMMV. -- lska, 18:57:14 04/01/08 Tue
            • not only would harm not be a good judge of belly size - she really was pregnant so whatever size she was - they used!! lol- Try to remember these are the same writers who made AJ six before his fifth birthday - the reality of time frames wasn't very important to them!! lol. (NT) -- chris k, 19:04:23 04/01/08 Tue
            • My only point in mentioning Catherine's belly size, was that it made her denial plausible. I think Harm would question the paternity, but when Catherine said her "due date" was just a month away, Harm wouldn't have the need to press the issue further. The fact that Catherine was already quite large would've added credibility to her denial. I don't expect Harm to be able to guess the length of her pregnancy based on the visual, but I'm pretty sure he can count backwards based on the EDC (due date)! (NT) -- doc, 19:04:55 04/01/08 Tue
              • By the way, EDC stands for "Estimated Date of Confinement". It's the medical term for the due date of a pregnancy. (NT) -- doc, 19:06:32 04/01/08 Tue
      • I agree strongly - if he believed there was any chance it really was his child - he would have pursued the issue. I think the writers or tptb just took advantage of the actresses pregnancy and the parallels to Mac in Paraguay to play with the audience a bit - to go for that preview shock factor - which worked. lol. Nearly gave me a dang heart attack. (NT) -- chris k, 09:11:52 04/01/08 Tue
  • I agree about not understanding why Harm forgave Webb. Inside -- Sophie, 08:39:21 04/01/08 Tue
  • I remember flipping out at the previews thinking dear God they're NOT going there. And was very thankful when Catherine said it's not yours. Now Whether something happened before or after paraguay- I'm not really sure. But something happened or she wouldn't have felt the need to say- it happened before we met. Why would she need to justify that if there hadn't been some intimacy at some point. But I think his offer to try a relationship came from his desire to have a family. The same reason he stayed with Annie, wouldn't give up on Singer, & later took care of Mattie. (NT) -- chris k, 09:09:46 04/01/08 Tue
    • Maybe I’m just trying to rationalize, but I think that the fact that CG said, ‘it happened before we met’ doesn’t necessarily indicate they slept together. When they had their fake “marriage”, CG gave no indication that she was involved with someone, thus the need to use Harm to play her boyfriend. I think this was the reason for her statement and Harm’s questioning look. (I speculate that as a woman getting older with no prospects for marriage, she had chosen artificial insemination.) (NT) -- lisa, 09:30:36 04/01/08 Tue
  • Fingers firmly planted in my ears as I recite, Harm did not have sex with Catherine, Harm did not have sex with Catherine! Now that I have that out of my system, I can see why some think that Harm indulged in comfort sex with CG. However, I still maintain that they didn’t do the deed. As doc stated, the stage of her pregnancy wouldn't fit for the baby to be Harm’s IF they'd had sex. However, as a man with little experience with pregnancy/estimating gestation, I don’t think Harm would have done the math as easily. And if they had slept together, he would have been far more insistent ... -- lisa, 09:15:40 04/01/08 Tue
    • Harm and CG must have "done it" at least once. That is the only possible explanation for his answer to the question from CG's mother: "Is it yours?" Harm's answer "I'm told it isn't" only makes sense if CG and Harm and never "done it." Otherwise, his answer would have been an unequivocal, "No." (NT) -- Bingo, 12:46:19 04/01/08 Tue
      • I agree, Bingo. If you consider the dialogue as written and spoken on the show as canon, then at least a one night stand had to have occured for the dialogue to make sense. (NT) -- Lee, 13:13:27 04/01/08 Tue
      • Who says it had to be taken literally? He said it with such a tongue in cheek look on his face, that I figured he was just playing around. The whole situation was stupid and needed some levity. The fact that he said "I'm told no" doesn't mean at all that they slept together, in my opinion. All it means is that he has a good sense of humor in a weird and uncomfortable situation. Remember, he just found out that the secret was out of the bag. He was part of a ridiculous lie and had been busted for it. It was found to have been a little awkward. (NT) -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 20:54:41 04/01/08 Tue
        • It was *bound* to have been... (NT) -- JJ (Ronda), 20:55:28 04/01/08 Tue
    • Actually, if you've read Sooz's story "Shadowlands", she makes a Harm/Catherine casual relationship very plausible during this time in the JAG storyline. The more I think about it, I can see Harm getting involved with Catherine during his junket with the CIA. He was hurt and feeling very alone, since no one that he really cared about was in his life at that time. I guess I'd rather he have someone, even casually, then be alone, desperate & reckless. (inside) -- doc, 13:04:07 04/01/08 Tue
      • There's also CLK's story, Implications and Possibilities - Harm eventually admits to a one night stand after the fake wedding before he went to Paraguay. He clearly describes it as purely comfort. (NT) -- janlaw, 21:24:59 04/01/08 Tue
  • I think Harm forgave the CIA because he was having a mid-life crisis and had already written off his JAG family as part of that - like a man who walks out on his family to go to his mistress. There doesn't have to be any logic to it, because emotions were all he was running on by that time. And he was so hurt by those he really cared about the rest of them didn't matter. Like most men, he eventually would have realized he'd cut off his nose to spite his face and rearranged his priorities again - or tried. (NT) -- NanaSue, 11:57:46 04/01/08 Tue
    • ...BTW, I guess I'd have to go with the "Harm and CG did it" crowd. I think Harm needed to feel something at that time, and CG would have made him feel good. Harm's surprise was because he'd had no idea she was pregnant, and he hadn't been with her long enough for it to be his child, so he didn't worry about it. I think by the time CG showd up at his apartment, they'd already broken up again (kind of like Harm and Bobbie - maybe a one-night stand). (NT) -- NS, 12:10:21 04/01/08 Tue
      • I agree, and I think whatever they had was pretty limited. A one night stand, or a series of them, but nothing you would call a relationship. It seemed like Harm was looking less for comfort and more for a way to remind himself that he was still a man. When she showed up at his apartment, it seemed clear that they hadn't seen each other in a while, despite working at the same place for those months. I think Harm and Catherine were the same person in some ways -- lots of professional success, but totally commitment phobic. (over - inside) -- lska, who still wonders who the father was!, 15:24:07 04/01/08 Tue
  • Sorry, guys, I don't think Harm and CG slept together. I know what the dialogue in the show was when the mom asked "Is it yours" and H answered "I'm told it isn't" invites us to think they did, BUT inside -- mj, 16:28:28 04/01/08 Tue
    • I actually think the maturing, that real "settled, mature, wanting a family & willing to wait" came after he got Mattie. Remember when he first came back to JAG, both he & Mac were still going at each other, and taking stripes out of each other’s hides…and anyone else who was in the close vicinity. It wasn't until Mac stood up for him in court, that Harm quit bickering & fighting, and instead began to patiently wait for Mac to be ready. (inside) -- doc, 17:22:05 04/01/08 Tue
      • IMO, I think that Mac saw CG as a blond, intelligent woman who could feasibly attract Harm thereby once again making him unavailable. In a lot of ways she was probably scared that he had moved on. However, I think that she probably wanted to let CG know, just in case she was wrong, that she (Mac) still considered Harm "Her man". He was, it just took TPTB two years to prove it . I have to say that TPTB wanted to throw doubt at us that Harm would sleep with CG, however, I don't think that he did. (NT) -- Dani R, 18:10:59 04/01/08 Tue
      • I think CG felt she had to explain that the pregnancy was a result of a liaison "before she knew him" simply because it was! inside -- mj, 18:31:14 04/01/08 Tue
        • But would Catherine even make that comment about jealous to a “casual acquaintance”? You’d have to be pretty good friends with someone to make that kind of observation AND be willing to voice it out loud! As for a “casual fling,” isn’t that what Harm did with both Kate & Bobbi? And he wasn’t under the same emotion stress/duress in both those instances as he was in season-9. I don’t think Harm really “grew-up” and changed, commitment-wise, until mid season-9. (inside) -- doc, 18:58:36 04/01/08 Tue
        • I'm sorry - but women simply don't go around explaining their pregnancys for no good reason. If Catherine and Harm were casual acquaintenances after working together once and a brief personal favor - his reaction should have been - I'm so happy for you and hers - Thank you. - Not a questioning glance and her instantly defensive remark -it happened before you. - The dialogue was definitely written to tell us - they at did at least once at some point. (NT) -- chris k, 19:07:57 04/01/08 Tue
          • I don’t think Harm’s shocked look at seeing CG pregnant is proof that they slept together. If I saw a friend who six months earlier I knew wasn’t involved with anyone and seemingly had no prospects of romance on the horizon, and then I see her very pregnant, I’d be surprised, too. Thus, CG’s explanation to Harm. (inside) -- lisa, 19:22:56 04/01/08 Tue
            • Maybe Harm WAS a complete let down (no pun intended) in bed!!! That WOULD explain why CG DID think twice about accepting his offer of FOREVER. She may have just thought -- 'Mac can have him -- the weenie'!. I mean, he certainly was a wimp when it came to fighting for Mac -- Krikey -- mac was a MARINE -- didn't he know after 9 years that he needed to carry her off over his head kicking and screaming no matter how many 'nevers' she thre at him??!! -- yeah, he could've been so-so in the sac (no pun intende)! (NT) -- mj (i am getting so silly now that I have to STOP posting! lol), 19:34:14 04/01/08 Tue
            • I don't think the same scruples that keep you from marrying a casual fling also keep you from sleeping with a slightly-taken man. I don't think CG would have had any problem sleeping with a willing Harm after Paraguay. I'm a big Mac fan, but I don't think she really had the kind of claim on Harm that another woman would respect, even before Paraguay. Catherine's decision not to marry Harm was about self-preservation. Harm's a doll, but *I* wouldn't have married him in those circumstances, on the rebound from yet another job, and clearly not really over the woman he went to Paraguay for. (NT) -- lska, 19:48:41 04/01/08 Tue
  • I never saw it as Harm "forgiving" Webb or the CIA. What for? Did he have to forgive AJ when he sent Mac on a dangerous mission? Himself for her presence in Russia - twice? Why would he have to forgive Webb for making a move on Mac? He hadn't. Now Harm and Catherine? Nope, they didn't. She would have been his rebound (sorta) girl with a ready-made family as bonus and she knew it. Thank goodness. He was hurting and jealous...that's why he couldn't forgive the JAG folk right away. IMHO. LOL!! (NT) -- Carrotts, 17:49:08 04/01/08 Tue
  • Oh, they for sure did it both before and after Paraguay. The parting scene between the two of them at the hospital was so obvious and I said to mayself at that time, they're gonna do it. That's why I always get angry when people say he was so concerned about Mac. Harm was concerned, but what he did at the hospital, the conversations between the two of them, the kiss and the last scene in the hospital maded me gag. (NT) -- Alice (newbie who usually just lurks), 18:17:31 04/01/08 Tue
    • Harm cared for Mac, but he was also selfish and I didn't put it past him to get a little on the side. I never saw him as honorable as others do. He had way too many faults, lied and was selfish many times. I loved Harm, but he really pissed me off as well. He questioned CG about the baby, because he was like oh sh**,. And he would have never said, 'I'm told No' otherwise. His answer would have been totally different. (NT) -- Alice, 18:18:13 04/01/08 Tue
      • Hi Alice - Good point about Harm not being quite as honorable as people build him up to be, although I think more in certain areas than others. (NT) -- JAGNikJen, 18:38:07 04/01/08 Tue
      • When you put it all like that, Alice, maybe you and doc are right! I do tend to idealize Harm -- let's call my Harm 'pedestal Harm', lol. But, as much as he was in love with Mac, they weren't married, engaged, hell, even inolved and Harm , after all, was a man!... inside -- mj, 18:53:42 04/01/08 Tue
        • LOL- apparently we were thinking at the same time - but I wouldn't go quite so far to say Man-ho!! LOL- (NT) -- chris k, 19:01:49 04/01/08 Tue
          • and dare I add Maria Consuelo Gutierez whatever the other names are to the list? lol. (NT) -- chris k, 19:02:40 04/01/08 Tue
            • Oh, yeah! Maria of the Many Names! Not to be confused with Mary of the Many Numbers. Although, I'm sure Mary wouldn't mind if HARM got her mixed up with Maria! LOL (NT) -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 21:55:06 04/01/08 Tue
        • There was also Jordan, and wasn't he supposed to be going on a romantic weekend when he was captured by the Chinese? I remember his sailboat was rammed, and I vaguely remember the Chinese hostage situation ruined a romantic trip??? Or maybe I'm hallucinating, LOL?! And the Admiral did ask Harm for a suggestion on where to take Sydney Walden on a romantic weekend get away. Clearly, the Admiral was aware of Harm's "prowess"! LOL, how embarrassing for both Harm & the Admiral! (NT) -- doc, 19:28:00 04/01/08 Tue
        • And oh please, he was hitting on AJ's daughter while he was dating and sleeping with Annie. I would go as far to say that Harm was a man-ho.LoL. There was such a big double standard between the male and female lead characters of Jag is wasn't even funny. Harm did many unhonorable things over 10 years both professionally and personally and it was always so obviously overlooked. (NT) -- Alice, 22:33:55 04/01/08 Tue
          • That's why I get such a bang out of those who get so angry and judgemental of Mac in Paraguay. Excuses are made for Harm and what he did with the excuse that he's a man and Harm and Mac weren't together. Then the very same excuse or reasoning should be used for Mac for those who get so angry about her and Webb. She was a young vital beautiful woman in sexual prime and Mac and Harm weren't in a relationship so she could do whatever she wanted. This is a great discussion. (NT) -- Alice (this is fun), 22:39:53 04/01/08 Tue
    • the reality would probably be - he's a healthy adult male used to having regular female sexual companionship ( Annie, Jordan, Renee) - It's insane to think the man was a monk for over two years. - They gave us the dialogue to imply not just once but twice that something happened. - they let us see that there wasn't a physical repulsion - and yes he loved and cared for Mac but she wasn't sleeping with him at the time so sleeping with Catherine wouldn't be even close to a betrayal or something dishonorable. (NT) -- chris k -, 19:00:29 04/01/08 Tue
      • I also think that even though he wasn't a monk, there was a big stretch of time between Renee leaving and Paraguay when he didn't have anybody. -- lska, 19:16:20 04/01/08 Tue
      • Oh, jeez, yes, Jordan -- who could forget that sappy pseudo shrink! Yes, Harm did bed quite a few women, making it all the more intriguing that after 9 years, he DID NOT manage to bed Mac. I know she offered (in Sydney), but ... inside -- mj, 19:22:04 04/01/08 Tue
  • OK. I'm posting this without reading everyone else's responses first. A while back, we discussed the whole did they or didn't they issue. I posted a very long response and IIRC, I even won a few over to my side--lol--but alas, I didn't save it. It wasn't connected to an EOTW, so I have no idea when it could have been. Otherwise, I'd go to archive.org and find the darn thing. But I'm out of luck since I don't know when it was. Inside -- JAG Junkie (Ronda), 20:46:51 04/01/08 Tue
    • It may be the minority opinion, but I completely agree with you JJ, for all the reasons you stated. (NT) -- lisa, 21:28:26 04/01/08 Tue
      • LOL I'm working my way down the thread, and I was considering posting an ITA after your post! I think your last paragraph said was I was trying to say, only better ;-) (NT) -- JJ (Ronda), 21:50:16 04/01/08 Tue
    • Its not a minority