| Subject: Re: Ok, on a lighter note... |
Author:
Jake
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Date Posted: 12:26:50 05/01/03 Thu
In reply to:
Daniel
's message, "Re: Ok, on a lighter note..." on 22:32:40 04/30/03 Wed
I kind of disagree with your whole originality argument. I mean, I'm not saying that you're wrong to like subs for that reason, just that I don't see it that way. You say you prefer to hear the voices and script that reflect the original creator's intent, but let's think about what that really means. Are the pitch, volume, etc of an actor's voice really the creator's intent, or is it the meaning that the pitch, volume, etc conveys to its audience? I would say, and I doubt you would disagree, that the importance of a character's voice is what it says about that character, not the literal acoustical qualities of it.
The problem is that these meanings and connotations aren't always universal across cultures. A husky female voice may be sexy in one culture and repulsive in another. I can even use your "grossly exaggerated" and unrealistic Star Wars example as a grossly exaggerated and unrealistic example of my own. Darth Vader was voiced by James Earl Jones because his voice does a good job of giving Americans the impression of power and menace. Now, if an incredibly deep voice is amusing to Japanese people, and if a whiny high-pitched voice seems powerful and menacing to Japanese people, then I say changing Darth Vader's voice to that of a whiny high-pitched boy IS honoring George Lucas' original intent and vision.
The problem with having the original creator oversee the dubbing and say "Yes that is the emotion I was going for" is that a Japanese creator does not fully understand how emotions are communicated in the United States. If I made a movie and it was being dubbed into Japanese, I would much rather have a Japanese director that I respect be in charge of the dubbing than for me to be in charge of it myself. Of course, I would want to make sure the director understood my work first, and I would try my best to explain my vision to him and how I tried to portray the characters. But then I would leave it to him to represent that vision in a Japanese context.
This argument is even more important when it comes to translation. When an actor changes a line because he "thought the character wouldn't say that," the only reason I have a problem with that is because he's only an actor (and probably not a very good one), and I don't trust him to make that kind of judgement. Ideally, the person making these kinds of judgements should be a talented writer or director who has seen and enjoyed the entire anime and if possible has discussed the project with the original creator.
In that situation, I say the script *should* be changed when it's determined that a character would never say a certain line, although ideally it would be discussed with the original creator first. This way we avoid the problem of lines that just aren't appropriate in an American context. For example, I don't know how many times I've heard anime characters exclaim "That's not something you say casually!" Have you ever heard an American say that? I sure haven't. In such a case, I think it's the translator's job to replace that with a more American line that still stays true to original creator's intent in the sense that I've defined it above.
ON THE OTHER HAND... Your originality argument is very important in the case of people who are interested in learning about Japanese culture. I've really enjoyed learning little things about Japanese people's use of language and their behavior in various situations. It's gotten to the point where I've watched enough subtitled anime that I can often appreciate things like, "Oh wow, that's a really big deal for a Japanese person to say that in that situation." And I can understand characters' reactions that would seem strange in the US. So despite spending most of this post disagreeing with you, you've changed my mind! =D I think I'll keep watching subs no matter how good the acting gets!
--This blatant top-post was brought to you by the phrase "get over it"--
>Grr..bringing this argument into THIS forum too..that
>makes 3 forums I read regularl that have it :-P
>
>I also e-mailed him (apparently I was the first at
>that...even got a reply). OMG I just pasted it and it
>is HUGE...MAJOR WARNING...LONG LENGTHY REPLY AHEAD
>
>I wonder if I can dig it up:
>
>"I have to say I wholeheartedly disagree with you on
>all of your points.
>I might also add that you come across as very arrogant
>in a "Look at me
>I'm right fasion." Please don't take that as a
>personal attack, I just
>am giving you advice since I found the column had that
>sort of tone. In
>any case...
>
>>>Subtitles are superior to dubs, because the
>translation is more
>>>accurate.
>
>Yeah...well as much to retort in this case, but I do
>have a few things
>to say. Although both can suffer problems in
>adaptations, one doesn't
>involve changing the dialogue entirely (in rare
>instances). I have been
>to panels where dub actors and directors will admit
>that they change
>the script to fit mouth movements. Now one can argue
>the validity of
>this (to which I somewhat agree), but at the same
>time, these can
>equate to pretty significant changes. In fact, one dub
>actor even
>admitted that he changed the script all the time
>because HE thought the
>character wouldn't say that. Now who is he to say what
>the character
>would or would not say? He didn't create the show or
>dialogue and has
>no right. I will get into this later with one of the
>otherpoints.
>
>I guess what I'm getting at is that one can suffer a
>lot further from
>adaptations just to match mouth movements.
>
>A little thing I'd like to add to your Ayeka comment
>is a counter-
>argument with Rurouni Kenshin. Kenshin uses a very
>polite form of
>Japanese (this is seen with the ending of all verbs in
>"degozaru").
>This CANNOT be translated in English. Now of course,
>most anime fans
>don't know what the hell this means (and it doesn't
>help that Media
>blaster equated it to him repeating the sentence i.e.
>I am Kenshin yes
>I am), however they have an ear and can tell that he
>speaks differently
>than others. A much better example is Osaka-ben (a
>dialect native to
>Osaka). I believe Sanouske (or perhaps it was Tae and
>he uses gangster
>slang...regardless the point stands) uses this with
>his "rolling" of
>letters and whatnot. Even though fans don't know what
>his dialect is,
>they know that he speaks differenty and identify his
>character to that.
>Make sense?
>
>>>I only watch subtitles because I want the same
>original experience
>>>the Japanese viewers received.
>
>>>Subtitles are superior because you get to hear the
>original voices.
>
>I would like to tackle these together since my point
>is the same. First
>off, I don't at all want to refer to "original" as
>solely Japanese. As
>you stated with Tenchi, it was originally recorded in
>English and
>whatnot. I want to refer to "original" as the
>originally intended
>language. The language/voices the creator himself
>chose and the voice
>actors he chose.
>
>I would also like to add that your comments are
>correct (on watching
>subtitles vs. imagery and so on), however you are
>generalizing the
>situation. The reason I (and I'm sure many people)
>watch subtitled
>anime is that we get the original vision of the
>creator/director or
>closer to it then a dub. I don't think I need to argue
>that it's
>obvious the Japanese creator/director does not come to
>the US and help
>with the adaptation of the US version. He does however
>have quite a bit
>of say on how things are in the Japanese version (of
>course not
>subtitles though).
>
>With that said, it's obvious that the version in
>Japanese has more of
>his input in it and therefore is closer to his
>"vision" (in this case
>voice) he wanted to convey to the audience. In most
>instances, they
>choose the voice actors, the voice inflections,
>dialogue and so on. As
>you said, watching it raw is the only way to TRULY see
>his entire
>vision, but watching it subbed is only one iteration
>of change as
>opposed to two (that of a dub). You still get the
>original voice/tone
>he wanted and the original emotions as opposed to
>someone's
>interpretation who didn't come up with the story,
>characters and so on.
>I know this sounds harsh, but they have no right since
>they didn't work
>on it.
>
>With a dub, you get no such thing. The creator has no
>input on this and
>it's up to the voice directors and cast (who I do
>agree are getting
>better) to try and match it. Regardless of how good of
>a job they
>do...it's impossible to match it entirely. They'd have
>to have the
>creator their to say "yes this is XYZ's voice," "Yes
>that is the
>emotion I was going for" and so on. I know you said
>that "the cels have
>no voice," but I wholeheartedly disagree. To the
>creator, each
>character DOES have a voice...a voice that HE picks
>out of numerous
>voice actors.
>
>I guess what I'm getting at is that with any work, I
>want to see it as
>close as possible to what the original intent was (a
>purist...although
>elitist seems to be interchangeable). For me, a
>subtitled anime goes
>through only one iteration of change (translation)
>while a dub has two.
>This of course does not only pertain to anime, I watch
>all foreign
>movies in their original voices as well (for example
>Run Lola Run,
>Amelie, Hero, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and so
>on).
>
>So, don't generalize that we watch anime subtitled for
>the reasons you
>give. I think the majority of anime fans watch it
>subbed to hear the
>original intended voice the creator chose and so on
>(who else is
>qualified to choose this?). It's all about seeing
>things as close to
>what he wanted as possible (although again I do
>concede the point on
>subtitles). I'd like to think this has to do with
>respect. I respect
>the fact that they are sharing their work with me and
>in turn I'd like
>to see it as "pure" as can be.
>
>>>The Japanese voice acting is always better than the
>English voice
>>>acting.
>
>Within the context of anime, this is true. I of course
>agree that there
>are numerous voice actors in Japan who aren't
>talented, but by the same
>token, their "net talent" is more than that of the
>states. This by no
>means an elitist or a "japanese are better in
>everything..I only think
>this b/c I love anime" attitude. It comes down to $$$.
>
>In Japan, voice actors are seen as movie stars and are
>paid a lot of
>$$$. This of course leads to more quality voice actors
>(since it's more
>selective...the big roles that is) Since the Japanese
>live-action
>market isn't even close to that of Hollywood, voice
>actors are instead
>seen as stars.
>
>This of course goes way back to the 40's when the
>Japanese didn't have
>the $$$ to go into live action and thus went into (the
>cheaper)
>animation. With this many years of "cartoons" it was
>only natural that
>their voice actors became more talented and also got
>more $$$ (since
>anime is seen just like a normal movie).
>
>In the states, with the exception of disney movies,
>most voice actors
>are....normal people. Not to say normal people can't
>voice act well,
>but for most of them, this isn't their JOB. Basically
>what it comes
>down to is $$$ and experience. The japanese have been
>doing this for
>years and it's only natural that they have more "net"
>talent
>(currently). Again though, the states is getting much
>better. This of
>course is b/c of the same reason...voice acting is
>becoming more
>respectable, gets better directors (which requires $)
>and better voice
>actors ($ again).
>
>I hope this (long) reply makes sense. I get incensed
>whem people assume
>things about people who prefer subs. I would like to
>also get out that
>I have no problems with dubs. I of course prefer subs
>or raw mainly for
>the reason of original intent and vision (although I
>felt the necessity
>to retort all your points...please be sure to remember
>that was my main
>reasoning), but fans are free to watch whatever they
>want and it in no
>way makes them "inferior" or for a sub lover to be
>"more otaku than
>thou." It's simply a live and let live situation...I
>mean hell...we're
>all watching anime at least right? However, if you do
>watch dubs, I
>still think you are "missing out" (mainly b/c you're
>missing the
>original intentions of the creator..his input), but
>I'll let it side
>^_^.
>
>Related sidenote, the US is one of the only nations
>that dubs
>EVERYTHING. I have visited many other countries and
>when going to the
>movies, a US movie is in...English with subtitles in
>the countrie's
>language. I've heard arguments that this has to do
>with the fact that
>the US doesn't have as much respect for other
>cultures, but I won't
>comment on it since it's a pretty bold statement. I do
>think it is an
>interesting point though...I've even heard some
>countries show their
>anime in japanese. It's a moot point...
>
>Daniel ^_^
>
>(I forgot something so I also mailed this):
>
>I'd like to give an example to illustrate my point
>about creator's
>original intent that usually works:
>
>Let's say the Japanese got The Empire Strikes Back and
>decided to dub
>it. Let's say that they decide to change the voice of
>Darth Vader from
>that of James Earl Jones to some puny and whiny boy
>(this argument can
>still hold to your live-actors point since Darth Vader
>WAS dubbed).
>Let's say they also change some of the lines since
>they think father-
>son abuse is bad...they change Vader to be his Uncle.
>
>Now can you honestly say that the Japanese are getting
>anything close
>to George Lucas' original intent or vision? Of course
>not.
>
>Now I will admit that this is a GROSS exageration on
>my part, but it
>clearly illustrates my point about original intent.
>I'm sure George
>Lucas casted James Earl Jones because...HE WANTED
>Darth Vader to sound
>that way and not some whiny, high-pitched boy. Now of
>course I'm sure
>NO dubbing company is THIS bad with their anime, but
>the point still
>makes sense since they still are modifying (however
>little) the
>original vision/voices. I hope this helps.
>
>-Daniel"
>
>You know the funny thing...his reply didn't retort ANY
>of it. He just puts one sentence replies that at best
>are just confrontational. I find him very
>unprofessional and more importantly he can't rebut any
>of my points. The main one of course is the "creator's
>vision" and "original intent." This is an inherent
>problem in dubbing. It CANNOT be overcome until the
>creator COMES to the US and helps with the
>dubbing..and in that case it wouldn't be dubbing b/c
>it's "original intent" again...
>
>I do apologize for the lengthy reply, but I am fairly
>fervent in my belief of "purity" and original intent.
>They are willing to share their work with me and the
>least I can do is respect it and watch it as it was
>meant to be. However, as I stated in the e-mail...I am
>not to the point where I HATE dub lovers...it's a live
>and let live situation.
>
>-Daniel
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