| Subject: Re: Ok, on a lighter note... |
Author:
Daniel
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Date Posted: 22:32:40 04/30/03 Wed
In reply to:
Jake
's message, "Ok, on a lighter note..." on 19:36:52 04/30/03 Wed
Grr..bringing this argument into THIS forum too..that makes 3 forums I read regularl that have it :-P
I also e-mailed him (apparently I was the first at that...even got a reply). OMG I just pasted it and it is HUGE...MAJOR WARNING...LONG LENGTHY REPLY AHEAD
I wonder if I can dig it up:
"I have to say I wholeheartedly disagree with you on all of your points.
I might also add that you come across as very arrogant in a "Look at me
I'm right fasion." Please don't take that as a personal attack, I just
am giving you advice since I found the column had that sort of tone. In
any case...
>>Subtitles are superior to dubs, because the translation is more
>>accurate.
Yeah...well as much to retort in this case, but I do have a few things
to say. Although both can suffer problems in adaptations, one doesn't
involve changing the dialogue entirely (in rare instances). I have been
to panels where dub actors and directors will admit that they change
the script to fit mouth movements. Now one can argue the validity of
this (to which I somewhat agree), but at the same time, these can
equate to pretty significant changes. In fact, one dub actor even
admitted that he changed the script all the time because HE thought the
character wouldn't say that. Now who is he to say what the character
would or would not say? He didn't create the show or dialogue and has
no right. I will get into this later with one of the otherpoints.
I guess what I'm getting at is that one can suffer a lot further from
adaptations just to match mouth movements.
A little thing I'd like to add to your Ayeka comment is a counter-
argument with Rurouni Kenshin. Kenshin uses a very polite form of
Japanese (this is seen with the ending of all verbs in "degozaru").
This CANNOT be translated in English. Now of course, most anime fans
don't know what the hell this means (and it doesn't help that Media
blaster equated it to him repeating the sentence i.e. I am Kenshin yes
I am), however they have an ear and can tell that he speaks differently
than others. A much better example is Osaka-ben (a dialect native to
Osaka). I believe Sanouske (or perhaps it was Tae and he uses gangster
slang...regardless the point stands) uses this with his "rolling" of
letters and whatnot. Even though fans don't know what his dialect is,
they know that he speaks differenty and identify his character to that.
Make sense?
>>I only watch subtitles because I want the same original experience
>>the Japanese viewers received.
>>Subtitles are superior because you get to hear the original voices.
I would like to tackle these together since my point is the same. First
off, I don't at all want to refer to "original" as solely Japanese. As
you stated with Tenchi, it was originally recorded in English and
whatnot. I want to refer to "original" as the originally intended
language. The language/voices the creator himself chose and the voice
actors he chose.
I would also like to add that your comments are correct (on watching
subtitles vs. imagery and so on), however you are generalizing the
situation. The reason I (and I'm sure many people) watch subtitled
anime is that we get the original vision of the creator/director or
closer to it then a dub. I don't think I need to argue that it's
obvious the Japanese creator/director does not come to the US and help
with the adaptation of the US version. He does however have quite a bit
of say on how things are in the Japanese version (of course not
subtitles though).
With that said, it's obvious that the version in Japanese has more of
his input in it and therefore is closer to his "vision" (in this case
voice) he wanted to convey to the audience. In most instances, they
choose the voice actors, the voice inflections, dialogue and so on. As
you said, watching it raw is the only way to TRULY see his entire
vision, but watching it subbed is only one iteration of change as
opposed to two (that of a dub). You still get the original voice/tone
he wanted and the original emotions as opposed to someone's
interpretation who didn't come up with the story, characters and so on.
I know this sounds harsh, but they have no right since they didn't work
on it.
With a dub, you get no such thing. The creator has no input on this and
it's up to the voice directors and cast (who I do agree are getting
better) to try and match it. Regardless of how good of a job they
do...it's impossible to match it entirely. They'd have to have the
creator their to say "yes this is XYZ's voice," "Yes that is the
emotion I was going for" and so on. I know you said that "the cels have
no voice," but I wholeheartedly disagree. To the creator, each
character DOES have a voice...a voice that HE picks out of numerous
voice actors.
I guess what I'm getting at is that with any work, I want to see it as
close as possible to what the original intent was (a purist...although
elitist seems to be interchangeable). For me, a subtitled anime goes
through only one iteration of change (translation) while a dub has two.
This of course does not only pertain to anime, I watch all foreign
movies in their original voices as well (for example Run Lola Run,
Amelie, Hero, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and so on).
So, don't generalize that we watch anime subtitled for the reasons you
give. I think the majority of anime fans watch it subbed to hear the
original intended voice the creator chose and so on (who else is
qualified to choose this?). It's all about seeing things as close to
what he wanted as possible (although again I do concede the point on
subtitles). I'd like to think this has to do with respect. I respect
the fact that they are sharing their work with me and in turn I'd like
to see it as "pure" as can be.
>>The Japanese voice acting is always better than the English voice
>>acting.
Within the context of anime, this is true. I of course agree that there
are numerous voice actors in Japan who aren't talented, but by the same
token, their "net talent" is more than that of the states. This by no
means an elitist or a "japanese are better in everything..I only think
this b/c I love anime" attitude. It comes down to $$$.
In Japan, voice actors are seen as movie stars and are paid a lot of
$$$. This of course leads to more quality voice actors (since it's more
selective...the big roles that is) Since the Japanese live-action
market isn't even close to that of Hollywood, voice actors are instead
seen as stars.
This of course goes way back to the 40's when the Japanese didn't have
the $$$ to go into live action and thus went into (the cheaper)
animation. With this many years of "cartoons" it was only natural that
their voice actors became more talented and also got more $$$ (since
anime is seen just like a normal movie).
In the states, with the exception of disney movies, most voice actors
are....normal people. Not to say normal people can't voice act well,
but for most of them, this isn't their JOB. Basically what it comes
down to is $$$ and experience. The japanese have been doing this for
years and it's only natural that they have more "net" talent
(currently). Again though, the states is getting much better. This of
course is b/c of the same reason...voice acting is becoming more
respectable, gets better directors (which requires $) and better voice
actors ($ again).
I hope this (long) reply makes sense. I get incensed whem people assume
things about people who prefer subs. I would like to also get out that
I have no problems with dubs. I of course prefer subs or raw mainly for
the reason of original intent and vision (although I felt the necessity
to retort all your points...please be sure to remember that was my main
reasoning), but fans are free to watch whatever they want and it in no
way makes them "inferior" or for a sub lover to be "more otaku than
thou." It's simply a live and let live situation...I mean hell...we're
all watching anime at least right? However, if you do watch dubs, I
still think you are "missing out" (mainly b/c you're missing the
original intentions of the creator..his input), but I'll let it side
^_^.
Related sidenote, the US is one of the only nations that dubs
EVERYTHING. I have visited many other countries and when going to the
movies, a US movie is in...English with subtitles in the countrie's
language. I've heard arguments that this has to do with the fact that
the US doesn't have as much respect for other cultures, but I won't
comment on it since it's a pretty bold statement. I do think it is an
interesting point though...I've even heard some countries show their
anime in japanese. It's a moot point...
Daniel ^_^
(I forgot something so I also mailed this):
I'd like to give an example to illustrate my point about creator's
original intent that usually works:
Let's say the Japanese got The Empire Strikes Back and decided to dub
it. Let's say that they decide to change the voice of Darth Vader from
that of James Earl Jones to some puny and whiny boy (this argument can
still hold to your live-actors point since Darth Vader WAS dubbed).
Let's say they also change some of the lines since they think father-
son abuse is bad...they change Vader to be his Uncle.
Now can you honestly say that the Japanese are getting anything close
to George Lucas' original intent or vision? Of course not.
Now I will admit that this is a GROSS exageration on my part, but it
clearly illustrates my point about original intent. I'm sure George
Lucas casted James Earl Jones because...HE WANTED Darth Vader to sound
that way and not some whiny, high-pitched boy. Now of course I'm sure
NO dubbing company is THIS bad with their anime, but the point still
makes sense since they still are modifying (however little) the
original vision/voices. I hope this helps.
-Daniel"
You know the funny thing...his reply didn't retort ANY of it. He just puts one sentence replies that at best are just confrontational. I find him very unprofessional and more importantly he can't rebut any of my points. The main one of course is the "creator's vision" and "original intent." This is an inherent problem in dubbing. It CANNOT be overcome until the creator COMES to the US and helps with the dubbing..and in that case it wouldn't be dubbing b/c it's "original intent" again...
I do apologize for the lengthy reply, but I am fairly fervent in my belief of "purity" and original intent. They are willing to share their work with me and the least I can do is respect it and watch it as it was meant to be. However, as I stated in the e-mail...I am not to the point where I HATE dub lovers...it's a live and let live situation.
-Daniel
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